Thoughts on Technical Foul

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by Big2Cat

Show me the rule.

I'm not talking about in the game where you are subject the official's judgment, I am talking about in how you interact with your officials, as was tref, Nevada and everybody else that commented about it.

It's not a rule, it's an expectation of professional courtesy even if you are not being shown any in return. Of course we, as officials, hold our fellow brothers and sisters in stripes to a higher standard when it comes to conduct within our own ranks. We have enough problems with the ignorant and uniformed. I'm actually surprised that this surprises you.

[Big2Cat]

Originally Posted by Welpe

I'm not talking about in the game where you are subject the official's judgment, I am talking about in how you interact with your officials, as was tref, Nevada and everybody else that commented about it.

It's not a rule, it's an expectation of professional courtesy even if you are not being shown any in return. Of course we, as officials, hold our fellow brothers and sisters in stripes to a higher standard when it comes to conduct within our own ranks. We have enough problems with the ignorant and uniformed. I'm actually surprised that this surprises you.

Okay, I misunderstood. Sorry. I didn't argue a call this game. The other coach was on him all game, even on the floor yelling at him. I think it was a culmination of everything and I got stuck at the end.

You are correct Welpe.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Welpe

I'm not talking about in the game where you are subject the official's judgment, I am talking about in how you interact with your officials, as was tref, Nevada and everybody else that commented about it.

Am I one of the "everybody else"? I commented on it.

Sorry, Nevada, Snaqs,Welpe, Tref, et al, I just do not agree with you. Imo saying "That's bad officiating" in that situation is no different than saying "That's bad officiating" after a travel call. It's exactly the same as saying "That's a bad call" or "You missed that one." If that's a one-off comment made quietly and without putting on a show, there is nowayinhell I'm ever calling an immediate "T" on that one. Maybe a warning...with the emphasis on "maybe". And I don't care whether the perp is an official or not, or whether it's grade school either.

I'm known as a law'n'order guy too, but that's just taking things way too far imo.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Am I one of the "everybody else"? I commented on it.

Sorry, Nevada, Snaqs,Welpe, Tref, et al, I just do not agree with you. Imo saying "That's bad officiating" in that situation is no different than saying "That's bad officiating" after a travel call. It's exactly the same as saying "That's a bad call" or "You missed that one." If that's a one-off comment made quietly and without putting on a show, there is nowayinhell I'm ever calling an immediate "T" on that one. Maybe a warning...with the emphasis on "maybe". And I don't care whether the perp is an official or not, or whether it's grade school either.

I'm known as a law'n'order guy too, but that's just taking things way too far imo.

"That's a bad call" isn't, IMO, the same as "that's bad officiating." Disagree if you want, but that's beyond my line. Making the comment, as an official, is risking a T in this situation.

Since in this situation, I'd have stayed back as Trail and probably killed the play early in a ms girls game, it's hard to say how I'd respond. If I missed the injury and the opposing coach gave me the heads up, I'd be grateful and wouldn't charge the TO.

However, if I was L and my partner charged the TO, only to have the coach snap, "that's bad officiating," I'd be more likely than not to ring him up.

[tref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

"That's a bad call" isn't, IMO, the same as "that's bad officiating." Disagree if you want, but that's beyond my line. Making the comment, as an official, is risking a T in this situation.

Concur

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

"That's a bad call" isn't, IMO, the same as "that's bad officiating." Disagree if you want, but that's beyond my line.

Everybody sets their own line and I sureasheck don't have a problem with that.

But if you're going to ring a coach up immediately for quietly saying for the very first time at the end of a game and without putting on any visible show "that's bad officiating" after you made a traveling call, well we sureasheck are going to disagree philosophically. I'd never dream of handing out a "T" under those circumstances.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Everybody sets their own line and I sureasheck don't have a problem with that.

But if you're going to ring a coach up immediately for quietly saying for the very first time at the end of a game and without putting on any visible show "that's bad officiating" after you made a traveling call, well we sureasheck are going to disagree philosophically. I'd never dream of handing out a "T" under those circumstances.

Fair enough, the "quietly" part escaped me. I read it, but seem to have glossed over it. I probably wouldn't ring up a quiet comment like that without warning.

That said, I don't really feel too sorry for an official/coach who makes the comment in a ms game, to an official who just charged a TO in this situation, and gets rung.

[tref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

But if you're going to ring a coach up immediately for quietly saying for the very first time at the end of a game and without putting on any visible show "that's bad officiating" after you made a traveling call, well we sureasheck are going to disagree philosophically. I'd never dream of handing out a "T" under those circumstances.

Not saying I dont trust the guy but are we sure thats how it really happened?
I've seen a number of whinny coaches act like they haven't done anything ALL GAME. "What was that for"

I'd like to get the game officials take on it.

A coach giving an official a piece of his mind, then turning his back on him could be considered "putting on a show" depending on what has happened previously in the game.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by tref

Not saying I dont trust the guy but are we sure thats how it really happened?

No, but my response was based on his actions being portrayed accurately. Under the specific circumstances that Cat related, I personally would not hand out a "T". But I don't have a problem with the people that would, as long as they're consistent when they set their own line in the sand. Everybody has their own tolerance level when it comes to what they view as T-worthy. That's one area where I don't think we're ever going to get unanimity. So, it's up to the coaches and players to figure out what they can and cannot get away with. And when you're making comments instead of asking questions, you're taking your chances.

JMO

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

"That's a bad call" isn't, IMO, the same as "that's bad officiating." Disagree if you want, but that's beyond my line. Making the comment, as an official, is risking a T in this situation.

When he says "that's bad officiating," to what does "that" refer?

It refers to the call or the act of making the call. To me, that's not personal, since it's about a single event and not the person of the official.

Of course you can draw your own line, but I think you're making a distinction without a difference here.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Am I one of the "everybody else"? I commented on it.

Sorry, Nevada, Snaqs,Welpe, Tref, et al, I just do not agree with you. Imo saying "That's bad officiating" in that situation is no different than saying "That's bad officiating" after a travel call. It's exactly the same as saying "That's a bad call" or "You missed that one." If that's a one-off comment made quietly and without putting on a show, there is nowayinhell I'm ever calling an immediate "T" on that one. Maybe a warning...with the emphasis on "maybe". And I don't care whether the perp is an official or not, or whether it's grade school either.

I'm known as a law'n'order guy too, but that's just taking things way too far imo.

I'm not saying I'd T it (I might but I'll go with HTBT). What I am saying is that the conduct of one official towards another that is working should be higher than that of the casual fan or coach. I'm sure you'd agree with me on that.

Nobody is perfect and just recently I violated this standard too at a minor league hockey game and I'm ashamed I did. It was humbling and I beat myself up on it pretty good for acting like Joe Six Pack the Ignorant Fan.

We really need to support our fellow officials out there working, no matter what capacity and level. Sure there are bad eggs but we would like the same in return. There are too few of us taking far too much garbage, let's try and make sure we're not adding to the heap.

That's all I'm saying.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Welpe

What I am saying is that the conduct of one official towards another that is working should be higher than that of the casual fan or coach. I'm sure you'd agree with me on that.

I do agree with that. But there are degrees of that too also imo. This is a long way from the actions of the Judtechs of the world imo. I personally don't think that what Cat did in this particular situation was particularly unsporting in nature. I took it as simply as just a one-off quiet and quick complaint about a call. Others might look at it differently. That's why any coach or player takes their chances when they complain. They have to know their audience.

Imo in this particular situation, issuing a "T" is like hitting an ant with a sledgehammer. But that's jmo.

[tref]

I respect that JR!

But when was the last time you called or watched youth/wreck ball?
Some of those ants deserve the Acme anvil, especially during March!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by tref

But when was the last time you called or watched youth/wreck ball?
Some of those ants deserve the Acme anvil, especially during March!

Oh, about a week ago........and this coming weekend we have a couple of tournaments to cover too....

And yes, we do have some concerns locally here about the antics of some of these daddy club coaches and their players and fans. We do NOT want our officials to take any crap from them and we'll back them 104.6%. But we also do try to treat each incident on it's own merits. And imo that's how Cat's situation should be treated also.

[tref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Oh, about a week ago........and this coming weekend we have a couple of tournaments to cover too....

And yes, we do have some concerns locally here about the antics of some of these daddy club coaches and their players and fans. We do NOT want our officials to take any crap from them and we'll back them 104.6%. But we also do try to treat each incident on it's own merits. And imo that's how Cat's situation should be treated also.

"If" it happened like he said it did, absolutely! HTBT

Honestly, I've rarely seen one of these type of games where the coach/dad didn't say, travel 37 times, get em off 26 times all while standing outside their box using sloppy signals. They think this behavior is okay for a couple reasons:

1. The guys who regularly work their games are inexperienced & dont know any better.

2. The guys who regularly work their games are intimidated by the coaches.

Originally Posted by Eastshire

I agree and I think what Cat did is an example of that higher conduct. He didn't fly off the handle but quietly disagreed. Had the referee not called a T, no one would have been the wiser. (Also, does it bother anyone one else that Cat was charged with a T and no one came and told him to put the seat belt on?)

However, you cannot actually hold an official/coach to a higher standard. If you do, you are creating an unfair playing field and disadvantaging the team he is coaching.

No it doesn't, he seated belted himself.

We cannot really hold anyone to a higher standard, that has got to come from within each individual.