Is there such an animal as a False Multiple Technical?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Now see if you can find any exceptions.

Last Team A free throw is successful. Clock hasn't started. Six team members on Team A are setting up a full court press. Official becomes aware of the extra player before (dead ball) the ball is at the disposal of Team B for a run-the-endline throwin.

Are six team members on Team A participating? What's the call?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Last Team A free throw is successful. Clock hasn't started. Six team members on Team A are setting up a full court press. Official becomes aware of the extra player before (dead ball) the ball is at the disposal of Team B for a run-the-endline throwin.

Are six team members on Team A participating? What's the call?

If the ball is dead, the throw-in hasn't started yet, has it? isn't it also a substitution opportunity?

Why wouldn't you just get the extra player off, just like you're supposed to do on any other throw-in before letting the ball become live?

If you're going to look for reasons why the play is illegal, why not also maybe look for reasons why the play is legal?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Isn't it also a substitution opportunity?

No substitute at the table, and no horn for a substitute. An unused opportunity. And an official is not administering a throwin here, a time that most of us use to make sure that there aren't six team members on the court.

And, yes, I am looking for a valid reason to charge a technical foul here, not because I'm looking to be "that guy" and charge a technical foul, but rather, I'm looking for a citation that tells me when a technical foul can be charged, by the book.

I would love the rule to state that the sixth player must be "caught in the act" while the ball is live, or while the ball is dead and the clock is running, but the rule doesn't say that. It says, "Penalized if discovered while being violated (six team members participating)". Maybe this is one of those NFHS rules where the interpretation must be like Justice Potter Stewart's, "I know it (six team members participating simultaneously) when I see it".

Jurassic Referee, and Snaqwells, have impeccable credentials, but I would like to hear from a few other esteemed members on this issue. What defines, or describes, by the book, six team members participating simultaneously?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

No substitute at the table, and no horn for a substitute. An unused opportunity. And an official is not administering a throwin here, a time that most of us use to make sure that there aren't six team members on the court.

And instead of thinking about it, you're still looking for a reason to ignore standard mechanics.

In the situation that you cited, in your own words you said the ball was still dead. That means by rule ....specifically NFHS rules 6-1-2(b) and 7-6-2.....the throw-in has not started. Iow, it's a dead ball and clock not running situation.

What are we supposed to do when we recognize a team has a 6 players on the court when the clock is stopped, the ball is dead and it's BEFORE a throw-in has started? Any throw-in?

Hint: it ain't sitting there with your whistle up your azz waiting for the ball to become live so you can call a career-ending "T".

if you can't figure out for yourself that NOBODY is participating in the game while the ball is dead and the clock is stopped, then there's no hope for you. Sorry, but there it is.

And I'm through wasting my time on this too. You take this nonsense way too far sometimes imo.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

NOBODY is participating in the game while the ball is dead and the clock is stopped.

Seems pretty straight forward.

[CK]

Sorry for the confusion in the original post

Thank you for the responses.

MTD, you answered the question as to, is there such an animal as a False Multiple Technical.

Thank You.

I will reword this

The question I have is two fold:

1: If the offical discovers during a LIVE ball, 6 players on the floor and blows the whistle to call the T (now a dead ball), at approximately the same time( or within seconds afterwards) the coach realizes they have 6 players on the floor and tries to pull that player off the floor. However the coach had a sub ready (on the bench) and the sub entered the floor without checking in or being beckoned. (A6 is replaced by A7) Still 6 on the floor.

Would this be a False Multiple Technical foul?

2: The official discovers 6 on the floor participating and BEFORE they blow the ball dead A7 subs for A6 without reporting or being beckoned, would this be a multiple Technical foul?

Sorry for the confusion and thank you again in advance

CK

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by CK

Sorry for the confusion in the original post

Thank you for the responses.

MTD, you answered the question as to, is there such an animal as a False Multiple Technical.

Thank You.

I will reword this

The question I have is two fold:

1: If the offical discovers during a LIVE ball, 6 players on the floor and blows the whistle to call the T (now a dead ball), at approximately the same time( or within seconds afterwards) the coach realizes they have 6 players on the floor and tries to pull that player off the floor. However the coach had a sub ready (on the bench) and the sub entered the floor without checking in or being beckoned. (A6 is replaced by A7) Still 6 on the floor.

Would this be a False Multiple Technical foul?

2: The official discovers 6 on the floor participating and BEFORE they blow the ball dead A7 subs for A6 without reporting or being beckoned, would this be a multiple Technical foul?

Sorry for the confusion and thank you again in advance

CK

Both plays would be a team technical followed by a player technical. Four free throws for the offended team, ball out of bounds at the division line.

[BillyMac]

This "more than five team members participating" is still bugging me.

I know this is poor mechanics, but bear with me and stick to the rules, especially those of you that believe that a technical foul for six players can't be given during a clock stopped, dead ball, situation.

Team A head coach yells to nearest official that there are six Team B players participating. Official sounds whistle to stop the action to count the players. There are six Team B team members on the court during this dead ball, clock stopped, situation. What's the call?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I know this is poor mechanics, but bear with me and stick to the rules, especially those of you that believe that a technical foul for six players can't be given during a clock stopped, dead ball, situation.

Those who believe that include every single official in the world except you, Old School.

[Adam]

Billy, I think it's safe to say that any official who screws this up and blows his whistle to count is likely to call the TF when he gets to 6.

Neither would be correct.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Those who believe that include every single official in the world except you.

It would make this "more than five team members participating" rule a lot easier to understand if it were true that a technical foul can't be charged if the ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. I would like it to be the NFHS interpretation. I'm almost convinced that it's the correct interpretation. I know that I'm debating with one of the great rules debaters on the Forum, and I'm more than likely going to come out on the wrong end of the debate. But, just answer my question:

Team A head coach yells to nearest official that there are six Team B players participating. Official sounds whistle to stop the action to count the players. There are six Team B team members on the court during this dead ball, clock stopped, situation. What's the call?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Team A head coach yells to nearest official that there are six Team B players participating. Official sounds whistle to stop the action to count the players. There are six Team B team members on the court during this dead ball, clock stopped, situation. What's the call?

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Billy, I think it's safe to say that any official who screws this up and blows his whistle to count is likely to call the TF when he gets to 6. Neither would be correct.

Thank you for your input. I'm almost convinced that this is the correct answer, but I would still have a tough time explaining it to the coach of Team A.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Team A head coach yells to nearest official that there are six Team B players participating. Official sounds whistle to stop the action to count the players. There are six Team B team members on the court during this dead ball, clock stopped, situation. What's the call?

Billy, methinks you're ten pounds of cuckoo in a four pound clock.....

You're an analytical chemist. Well, analyze this:
1) WHY did the official blow his whistle?
2) What did the official confirm after he blew his whistle?

Now, if you're going to spend most of your waking hours dreaming up these freaking twp's, for Andy's sake couldn't you at least come up with something a little more logical? If anybody hollers at you that a team has 6 on the floor, would anybody with even the tinest amount of experience and rules knowledge not count the players before blowing his whistle? Any putz that doesn't is walking on thin ice imo.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If anybody hollers at you that a team has 6 on the floor, would anybody with even the tinest amount of experience and rules knowledge not count the players before blowing his whistle? Any putz that doesn't is walking on thin ice imo.

I'm thinking the guy mentioned above is gonna indicate that he did count before the whistle, whether he actually did so or not. If he then counts again, ostensibly to double check, I really don't see how anybody could complain.

[BillyMac]

It's not a mechanics question.