False Multiple ??

[BillyMac]

I think that most of us would agree that fouls during a dead ball are ignored unless they are intentional, or flagrant.

Boys varsity game this week. White team down by about ten with a few minutes to go. White team is trying to foul Red team to stop clock. Red team is doing a good job at playing "keep away". White player reaches in and slaps Red player on the arm. As I'm putting some air into the whistle to call a common foul, the White player grabs the jersey of the Red player, who he has already fouled, but Red is about to get by the White player, thus the jersey grab. The sound of my whistle and the jersey grab happen at the same time.

Do I just call the common foul, and ignore the jersey grab?

Do I only call the intentional foul for the jersey grab, and forget about the common foul?

Do I call both the common foul, and the intentional foul?

Two types of answers please, common sense (spirit, intent, advantage, disadvantage) answers, and rule book answers, with citations, please.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Two types of answers please, common sense (spirit, intent, advantage, disadvantage) answers, and rule book answers, with citations, please.

You make it sound like those are mutually exclusive.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

You make it sound like those are mutually exclusive.

They sometimes are. It depends on whether you're taking a written test, or officiating a sixth grade middle school game.

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I think that most of us would agree that fouls during a dead ball are ignored unless they are intentional, or flagrant.

Boys varsity game this week. White team down by about ten with a few minutes to go. White team is trying to foul Red team to stop clock. Red team is doing a good job at playing "keep away". White player reaches in and slaps Red player on the arm. As I'm putting some air into the whistle to call a common foul, the White player grabs the jersey of the Red player, who he has already fouled, but Red is about to get by the White player, thus the jersey grab. The sound of my whistle and the jersey grab happen at the same time.

Do I just call the common foul, and ignore the jersey grab?

Do I only call the intentional foul for the jersey grab, and forget about the common foul?

Do I call both the common foul, and the intentional foul?

Two types of answers please, common sense (spirit, intent, advantage, disadvantage) answers, and rule book answers, with citations, please.

just call the common foul, and ignore the jersey grab?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I think that most of us would agree that fouls during a dead ball are ignored unless they are intentional, or flagrant.

Boys varsity game this week. White team down by about ten with a few minutes to go. White team is trying to foul Red team to stop clock. Red team is doing a good job at playing "keep away". White player reaches in and slaps Red player on the arm. As I'm putting some air into the whistle to call a common foul, the White player grabs the jersey of the Red player, who he has already fouled, but Red is about to get by the White player, thus the jersey grab. The sound of my whistle and the jersey grab happen at the same time.

Do I just call the common foul, and ignore the jersey grab?

Do I only call the intentional foul for the jersey grab, and forget about the common foul?

Do I call both the common foul, and the intentional foul?

Two types of answers please, common sense (spirit, intent, advantage, disadvantage) answers, and rule book answers, with citations, please.

I'd just call the common foul. Also a quick word to the White player about the limits of his strategy.

[atcref]

I'm going to share some words of wisdom, given to me over a decade ago. If you have never seen it happen before. Do not let it happen here tonight. AND don't call anything taking 2 paragraphs to explain. Hope this helps.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by atcref

I'm going to share some words of wisdom, given to me over a decade ago. If you have never seen it happen before. Do not let it happen here tonight. AND don't call anything taking 2 paragraphs to explain. Hope this helps.

Two paragraphs to explain to whom?

If I've never seen it(whatever "it" is) happen before, I still have to call it according to the rules. I can't just forget about it because I might have to explain it. You can't just ignore something because it doesn't happen very often.That's patently ridiculous.

Here's some better words of wisdom for you imo. Just call the game without worrying about anything, including explanations.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I think that most of us would agree that fouls during a dead ball are ignored unless they are intentional, or flagrant.

Boys varsity game this week. White team down by about ten with a few minutes to go. White team is trying to foul Red team to stop clock. Red team is doing a good job at playing "keep away". White player reaches in and slaps Red player on the arm. As I'm putting some air into the whistle to call a common foul, the White player grabs the jersey of the Red player, who he has already fouled, but Red is about to get by the White player, thus the jersey grab. The sound of my whistle and the jersey grab happen at the same time.

Do I just call the common foul, and ignore the jersey grab?
Do I only call the intentional foul for the jersey grab, and forget about the common foul?
Do I call both the common foul, and the intentional foul?

Two types of answers please, common sense (spirit, intent, advantage, disadvantage) answers, and rule book answers, with citations, please.

I apologize to the Forum members who have read this, or posted a comment on it. Now that I have re-read the original post, I don't think that I gave enough information:

The foul by White player was the usual, simple, attempt to stop the clock, and the foul, or fouls, was one motion, from the forearm, to the jersey, in just a few milliseconds. During my reaction time to observe the first foul, and blow the whistle, the second foul occurrred immediatlely after the first, appearing as one foul. Keep in mind that everyone in the gym saw the jersey grab as the Red player started a move to the basket.

By the way, I only called an intentional foul, for the jersey grab, which the White coach didn't have a major problem with, other than asking my partner why it was intentional.

Here's what came to my mind after the game:

Let's say that I stick with my original call, at least in my brain, a common foul. The Red coach asks, "What about the jersey grab being intentional?". I can't reply that a foul during a dead ball must be flagrant or intentional, because it was intentional. What's my answer to him?

By the book, I believe that this should be a common foul, followed by an intentional technical foul. But I've never seeen this called before, and it seems overly officious.

Going with the intentional foul only seems to me like the best way. The Red coach is happy because his team gets two shots, and the ball. The White coach is happy because his team, and his player, wasn't charged with two fouls, the common, and the intentional, which would have taken some explaining for this overly officious call. The only problem that I have with the one intentional foul is that it's a lie. I originally put air in my whistle for the common foul, and ended up reporting an intentional foul.

Again, please keep in mind that the foul, or fouls, was only one motion that only took a few milliseconds, and that everybody in the gyn saw the jersey grab.

Comments ???

[just another ref]

Too much mention of keeping people happy. A simple grab of the jersey after the ball is dead is easy to ignore.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Too much mention of keeping people happy. A simple grab of the jersey after the ball is dead is easy to ignore.

Please keep in mind that the ball was dead because of the common foul, not because I blew my whistle. What about the general rule that fouls during dead balls should be ignored unless they're flagrant, or intentional. No one in the gym had a problem understanding that a player's jersey being grabbed, when he is about to beat his man to the basket, especially during the last few minutes of a game, in which one team is trying to foul, was a simple intentional foul. So, if no one had a problem with this being called an intentional foul, how, according to the rules, can it be ignored?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Please keep in mind that the ball was dead because of the common foul, not because I blew my whistle. What about the general rule that fouls during dead balls should be ignored unless they're flagrant, or intentional. No one in the gym had a problem understanding that a player's jersey being grabbed, when he is about to beat his man to the basket, especially during the last few minutes of a game, in which one team is trying to foul, was a simple intentional foul. So, if no one had a problem with this being called an intentional foul, how, according to the rules, can it be ignored?

The player in this situation was not about to beat his man anywhere. That's why you don't make this call. I don't think the intent of the note in 4-19-1 was to make a call in this situation. Part of the definition of intentional foul includes the phrase "not based solely on the severity of the act." This says to me that the severity of the act is a factor. If the defender simply grabs the jersey, then immediately releases, forget it. Look at it this way. At any point in the game after a foul is called the defender may grab his opponent, to hold him up, to pat him on the back, or whatever. The grab, while intentionally done, in and of itself, need not be a foul.

[Reffing Rev.]

Game I was watching from the bleachers Friday night, NCAA rules. A1 is driving on a fast break, B1 who has hustled in front of A1 attempts a block. A1 and B1 are in the air as is B2 who is trying a block from behind A1. Whistle blows for foul on B1 and then B2 nails A1 just after he releases the ball for a try. Doesn't this warrant a multiple foul? or does that call exist anymore?

[Snake~eyes]

Originally Posted by Reffing Rev.

Game I was watching from the bleachers Friday night, NCAA rules. A1 is driving on a fast break, B1 who has hustled in front of A1 attempts a block. A1 and B1 are in the air as is B2 who is trying a block from behind A1. Whistle blows for foul on B1 and then B2 nails A1 just after he releases the ball for a try. Doesn't this warrant a multiple foul? or does that call exist anymore?

If A1 was still airborne then by rule it is a multiple foul. I personally, would never call it.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

At any point in the game after a foul is called the defender may grab his opponent, to hold him up, to pat him on the back, or whatever. The grab, while intentionally done, in and of itself, need not be a foul.

I agree, but, in this case, the purpose of White player was to foul the Red player to stop the clock. If it were a hold, a block, or illegal use of hands, unless extra hard, it would probalby have been a common foul. In these situations, a hard two-hand push from behind, a bear hug, or a grab of the jersey, are often called, with little disagreement from coaches, intentional fouls.

Again, even though I could call, by the book, two fouls, I'm only calling one, in most cases the intentional foul. The only person in the gym who knows for sure that there was a common foul before the intenrtional foul was me, and I'm not telling anyone. This seems to fit my interpretation of the spirit and intent of the rules. It's too bad that there is nothing, other than spirit and intent, in the rule book to back me up.

[bigwhistle]

Call a common foul and keep the game moving. If Team B is trying to foul and didn't hear a whistle on the first slap, he was trying again to get the clock stopped by the subsequent hold. This is why officials need to be aware of the game and the situations at hand.

If you let the "ticky-tack" foul go here (which is apparently what the defensive player thought had happened), he will make contact again with a force that makes it harder to ignore. CALL THE FIRST FOUL!!!! Both coaches want it and understand it. This is good game management.