Administering a false multiple

[Scrapper1]

This didn't happen to me, thankfully, but apparently it actually did happen in a high school game in a neighboring state.

A1 jumps to release a 3-point try. Simultaneously, B1 fouls A1 in the act of shooting and B2 fouls A2 while trying to get rebounding position.

At the start of the play, Team B had 5 team fouls in the half. Since it's a false multiple, each foul carries its own penalty. Should there be a 1-and-1 shot in this situation by A2, since the team foul total is now 7? Or do we simply give A1 his free throw(s) for the shooting foul and then give the ball back to Team A?

In other words, we have to penalize both fouls; but do we penalize B2's foul as if it were the 6th team foul or as if it were the 7th team foul? Keeping in mind that they happened simultaneously, according to the official who told me the story.

[mbyron]

I'm penalizing the shooting foul first, since the other way doesn't make sense. Then, the pushing foul becomes the 7th, and we shoot 1 & 1.

FT's for the first foul should be shot with the lane cleared.

[Indianaref]

Did you say simultaneously? If so, use A/P. I think I prefer the false multiple route that Mbyron posted.

[bob jenkins]

Bonus FTs are only shot for common fouls. I think you are decribing a "simultaneous" foul (that's one example of a false multiple foul), and that's not a common foul.

So, A gets the ball back.

(IOW, the fouls are "tied" for 6th. The next foul will be the 8th.)

Note also that the definition section does not describe a "simultaneous" foul, only a "simultaneous foul by opponents." An important disctinction.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Bonus FTs are only shot for common fouls. I think you are decribing a "simultaneous" foul (that's one example of a false multiple foul), and that's not a common foul.

The fouls are simultaneous, agreed. This is a false multiple foul, agreed. So a common foul can be part of a false multiple foul, but not part of a simultaneous foul; and there's nothing in the rules that says a simultaneous foul must include fouls by both teams. Hmmmm.

So the penalty for the rebounding foul is simply possession of the ball after A1 shoots his/her free throw(s) with the lane spaces unoccupied?

[Indianaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Last free throw goes in: Run the endliine.
Last free throw misses: Designated spot.

I had almost the same exact play in one of my games last week. I wonder if Connecticut is the neighboring state?

I read the OP wrong. False multiple foul. I still like shooting the one and one for A2. If you go Bob's way with a throw in, don't have books with me, but I am sure you are not allowed to run the endline under your own basket.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Indianaref

I read the OP wrong. False multiple foul. I still like shooting the one and one for A2. If you go Bob's way with a throw in, don't have books with me, but I am sure you are not allowed to run the endline under your own basket.

Isn't Team A is retaining possession?

[Indianaref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Isn't Team A is retaining possession?

Yes. Team A retains possession with a throw in. I think Billy was asking if they could run the endline if A1 makes his last free throw for the shooting foul. Is that right?

[letemplay]

Had similar play last night except basket by A1 was good. Gave one shot to A1 and 1+1 to A2. Can't use a/p after this, what if it was in B's direction? Wouldn't make sense for B to have ball after committing a foul. (maybe that's the part you misread in o/p)

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Indianaref

Yes. Team A retains possession with a throw in. I think Billy was asking if they could run the endline if A1 makes his last free throw for the shooting foul. Is that right?

A can never run the end-line (legally) in the play described.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

A can never run the end-line (legally) in the play described.

Sorry. I was thinking false double, not false mutiple.

[Indianaref]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

A can never run the end-line (legally) in the play described.

Correct, I just don't have the book handy to quote a rule number.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Bonus FTs are only shot for common fouls. I think you are decribing a "simultaneous" foul (that's one example of a false multiple foul), and that's not a common foul.

So, A gets the ball back.

(IOW, the fouls are "tied" for 6th. The next foul will be the 8th.)

Note also that the definition section does not describe a "simultaneous" foul, only a "simultaneous foul by opponents." An important disctinction.

This sounds right to me.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Bonus FTs are only shot for common fouls. I think you are decribing a "simultaneous" foul (that's one example of a false multiple foul), and that's not a common foul.

So, A gets the ball back.

(IOW, the fouls are "tied" for 6th. The next foul will be the 8th.)

Note also that the definition section does not describe a "simultaneous" foul, only a "simultaneous foul by opponents." An important disctinction.

Can you justify that by rule though?

The play described meets the definition of a false multiple foul as per 4-19-12. It doesn't meet the rules definition of either a simultaneous foul or a multiple foul. And rule 10: PENALTIES: (Rule 10 Summary) #5 on a false multiple foul states that each foul carries it's own penalty. Shouldn't we be trying to penalize both of these fouls by using those rules? You're not really penalizing the foul on the shooter if you ignore that foul. You're assessing one penalty for two fouls.

I can't see any rules justification for having a tie and going to the POI. There is no mention in 4-36-1 of a false multiple foul being applicable.

And yes, I realize that there is a gray area in the rules of which foul to penalize first. But I think the officials have to get together and make that decision.

Thoughts?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Can you justify that by rule though?

Yes.

There's no definition of "simultaneous foul." So, we have to use the common definition of "happening at the same time."

If fouls happen at the same time, then they aren't common fouls, and no bonus is shot.

The play described meets the definition of a false multiple foul as per 4-19-12.

Agreed.

It doesn't meet the rules definition of either a simultaneous foul or a multiple foul.

The first isn't defined, and I agree it doesn't meet the definition of the second.

And rule 10: PENALTIES: (Rule 10 Summary) #5 on a false multiple foul states that each foul carries it's own penalty. Shouldn't we be trying to penalize both of these fouls by using those rules?

Yes. Shoot two for the shooting foul. Ball inbounds for the non-shooting foul.

I can't see any rules justification for having a tie and going to the POI.

Nor can I. That's why I didn't advocate going to POI.