Is there such an animal as a False Multiple Technical?

[CK]

Scenerio

A has 6 players on the floor, as the official is getting ready to call the T, A tries to sub a player for a player. (Not to remove the 6th player, but to sub without checking in or being beckoned onto the court by the official)(By the way my official would not and did not beckon the player onto the court, already knowing of the T for too many players on the floor). By DEFINITION would this be called a false multiple Technical foul. The out come is the same, as far as the penalty. By definiton, can this be defined as a False Multiple Technical?

Thank You

CK

[refiator]

I'm a little confused. If there were 6 players on the floor, but an unwarranted sub were entering the game, was there a dead ball (otherwise, why was sub entering?)
If the ball was dead, no "T" for the 6th man, and tell the sub to go back to the table. If the ball was live, I may ignore the sub and explain as a late whistle for the 6 players on the floor. In any event, I'd like to see the replay.

[Adam]

I'm confused, was the ball live or dead when he was about to call the T?
If it was live, blow the whistle for the 6 players, ignore the rest as the ball is dead. IOW, I agree with refiator on this one.
If it was dead, you've only got a T for the sub entering w/o being beckoned.

Either way, 1 T.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

The question should be:

Can all of the fouls in a false multiple foul be technical fouls? The answer is yes.


Example: A1 tells the official where to stick his whistle. The officials informs A1's coach, as to why A1 received a Flagrant TF, and A1's coach also tells the official what he can do with his whistle, thereby receiving a Flagrant TF himself.

MTD, Sr.

[BillyMac]

If a team has more than five team members participating simultaneously, then a team technical foul is charged. This infraction is penalized if it is discovered by the officials while being violated, in other words, while more than five team members are currently participating as players in the game.

Does it matter if the ball is dead, or live? If there are six players, does it matter whether whether, or not, the ball is dead, live, clock running, clock not running, or if there is, or isn't, a timeout (not an intermission)?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

If a team has more than five team members participating simultaneously, then a team technical foul is charged. This infraction is penalized if it is discovered by the officials while being violated, in other words, while more than five team members are currently participating as players in the game.

Does it matter if the ball is dead, or live? If there are six players, does it matter whether whether, or not, the ball is dead, live, clock running, clock not running, or if there is, or isn't, a timeout (not an intermission)?

You answered your own question in your first paragraph. Didn't you understand yourself?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You answered your own question in your first paragraph. Didn't you understand yourself?

Just confirming. I was confused by an earlier post:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

If it was dead, you've only got a T for the sub entering w/o being beckoned.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Just confirming. I was confused by an earlier post:

Why was that confusing? The NFHS has made it clear that players are not "participating" for purposes of this rule when the ball is dead and the clock isn't running.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Why was that confusing? The NFHS has made it clear that players are not "participating" for purposes of this rule when the ball is dead and the clock isn't running.

Citation please?

NFHS 10-1-6: A team shall not: Have more than five team members participating simultaneously

10.1.6 SITUATION: With Team A leading 51 to 50, a held ball is called. A6
properly reports and enters the game. Time is then called by Team A. The clock
shows two seconds remaining in the game. After play is resumed by a throw-in,
the officials: (a) recognize that A has six players competing, but cannot get the
clock stopped; or (b) do not notice Team A has six players on the court. Following
the throw-in, time expires. Team B now reports to the officials that Team A had
six players on the court. RULING: In (a), since one of the officials had knowledge
that Team A had six players participating simultaneously and this was detected
prior to time expiring, a technical foul is assessed against Team A. In (b), since it
was not recognized by either official, but was called to their attention after time
had expired, it is too late to assess any penalty.

Question: Head coach of Team A requests, and is granted, a timeout, at which point he complains to the officials that Team B has six team members participating. Officials, who have been unaware that six team members have been participating up until that point, count six team members walking off the court into their timeout huddle (Please note that in 10.1.6 SITUATION (b) the officials were not aware of the additional player until after time expires, which, to me, means the same as an intermission, when all team members are bench personnel).

Ruling on my timeout situation?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Citation please?

NFHS 10-1-6: A team shall not: Have more than five team members participating simultaneously

Well, how about the mechanic that says we count the players before putting the ball in play, and if there are 6 (or more), we fix the problem rather than call the T? Granted, this is more about practice than rule, but the practice is pretty much universal; if the NFHS wanted it done differently, they would issue an edict (sort of like the end of game/shirt off scenario).

I was going to use case 10.1.6, but in that one the game is over rather than just stopped.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Citation please?

NFHS 10-1-6: A team shall not: Have more than five team members participating simultaneously

10.1.6 SITUATION: With Team A leading 51 to 50, a held ball is called. A6
properly reports and enters the game. Time is then called by Team A. The clock
shows two seconds remaining in the game. After play is resumed by a throw-in,
the officials: (a) recognize that A has six players competing, but cannot get the
clock stopped; or (b) do not notice Team A has six players on the court. Following
the throw-in, time expires. Team B now reports to the officials that Team A had
six players on the court. RULING: In (a), since one of the officials had knowledge
that Team A had six players participating simultaneously and this was detected
prior to time expiring, a technical foul is assessed against Team A. In (b), since it
was not recognized by either official, but was called to their attention after time
had expired, it is too late to assess any penalty.

Question: Head coach of Team a requests, and is granted, a timeout, at which point he complains to the officials that Team B has six team members participating. Officials, who have been unaware that six team members have been participating up until that point, count six team members walking off the court into their timeout huddle (Please note that in 10.1.6 SITUATION (b) the officials were not aware of the additional player until after time expires, which, to me, means the same as an intermission, when all team members are bench personnel). Ruling on my timeout situation?

You just answered your own question AGAIN. Under 10.1.6(b), there is no technical foul issued. Under rule 10-1-6PENALTY(Art 6), you can't issue "T" as it wasn't discovered while being violated.

Casebook play 10.1.6Sit(a) illustrates the same point. In that situation, you can issue a "T" because it was discovered while being violated i.e. the clock running. The officials just couldn't get the clock stopped in time. Hell, a better nit for you to pick might be why they don't put time back on the clock in 10.1.6Sit(a) IF they have definite knowledge of how much to put back on.

Lah me, Billy, you know all that. It's pretty damn straight-forward. Why look for reasons to confuse the newbies?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I was going to use case 10.1.6, but in that one the game is over rather than just stopped.

Just use R10-1-6PENALTY(Art6). It's straight-forward, no matter how confused Billy is with it.

ART. 6- "Penalized if discovered while being violated."

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

It's pretty damn straight-forward. Why look for reasons to confuse the newbies?

In 10.1.6 SITUATION (b), the game has ended, and, like an intermission, all team members are considered bench personnel, and therefore, not players, and therefore not "participating". That's why a technical foul can't be charged.

In my hypothetical situation, in which a timeout has been requested, and granted, the sixth "player" may still be participating? Or, is he? He's not a player, because, by definition, there are only five players. He's not bench personnel, because he was just playing in the game. He's in some kind of basketball team member limbo? Thus my question. If the officials observe this sixth team member walking off the court into the timeout huddle, is it too late to charge a technical foul?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

In 10.1.6 SITUATION (b), the game has ended, and, like an intermission, all team members are considered bench personnel, and therefore, not players, and therefore not "participating". That's why a technical foul can't be charged.

In my hypothetical situation, in which a timeout has been requested, and granted, the sixth "player" may still be participating? Or, is he? He's not a player, because, by definition, there are only five players. He's not bench personnel, because he was just playing in the game. He's in some kind of basketball team member limbo? Thus my question. If the officials observe this sixth team member walking off the court into the timeout huddle, is it too late to charge a technical foul?

Yes, you've seen a player walking off the court. You have no idea when or how he got on. He could be coming back from getting a drink, or congratulating a teammate, or....

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Why was that confusing? The NFHS has made it clear that players are not "participating" for purposes of this rule when the ball is dead and the clock isn't running.

Team A has six team members participating, which goes unobserved by the officials. Official calls a travel violation on Team A. There are no substitutions after the whistle. Before administering the throw in, official observes that Team A (still) has six team members participating. Ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. Too late to penalize with a technical foul?

Note to Snaqwells, and Jurassic Referee: I'm "hung up" on the word "participating". Please be patient with me for a few more posts, and then send me to my room without supper.