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Old Wed Dec 15, 2010, 09:41pm
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False double, false multiple, double TF, bench personnel TF.

For those that do not know, my dear, smart (I know, she married me, go figure), and beautiful wife have been co-vice president the athletic boosters club for the last six years and this past Friday night we were selling tee-shirts, sweat shirts, help the girls' basketball team with the 50/50 raffle, etc. during the boys' JV/VAR doubleheader with the school's arch rival and league opponent: The high school that is literally just 1.5 miles down the street.


The Set-up::

Late in the second quarter with both teams in the double bonus. The Visitor's Superintendent of Schools (who is a H.S. basketball official) is sitting in the stands with his wife and their children a few rows above the Visitor's Bench. While my lovely better half is working I am standing with our AD (Home Team) on my right and the Visitor's AD on my left at the Table Side Corner of the "end zone" near the Visitor's Bench watching the game.

V1 has the ball in his team's front court table side and L and T are Table Side and the C is Opposite the Table (obviously); the game officials are assigned by the league and I have never seen any of them before until tonight (It is not unusual for our league to assign officials from 50, 75, or even 100 miles away; we had a varsity football crew from Columbus for one home game this year and Columbus is 150 miles away.)


The Play:

V1 attempts a two-point FG. During rebounding action V2 commits a Common Foul against H2 and the foul is called by the L. As the L moves along the Sideline in front of the Home Bench to report the foul, V2 starts backing out of the paint toward the C's area while H2 is stalking toward him "running" his mouth. H2 catches up to V2 and chest bumps him two times before the T can get to the two players. By this time players from both teams have started to pull H2 and V2 out of the area and the C steps in and gives the TF sign in a very demonstrative manner. The fun really begins because H6 then leaves the Home Bench, runs onto the court under Team H's basket and starts yelling at V2.

I will now stop and let everybody decide how to handle this situation. Because of the weather, I have not had a chance to get to the H.S. to look at the game tape, but I will let everybody know how it was handled in a day or two after everybody has had a chance to post his or her two cents.

MTD, Sr.
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Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials
Ohio High School Athletic Association
International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials
Toledo, Ohio

Last edited by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.; Fri Dec 17, 2010 at 02:45pm. Reason: Corrected typos discovered by NevadaRef.
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Old Wed Dec 15, 2010, 10:04pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
For those that do not know, my dear, smart (I know, she married me, go figure), and beautiful wife have been co-vice president the athletic boosters club for the last six years and this past Friday night we were selling tee-shirts, sweat shirts, help the girls' basketball team with the 50/50 raffle, etc. during the boys' JV/VAR doubleheader with the school's arch rival and league opponent: The high school that is literally just 1.5 miles down the street.


The Set-up::

Late in the second quarter with both teams in the double bonus. The Visitor's Superintendent of Schools (who is a H.S. basketball official) is sitting in the stands with his wife and their children a few rows above the Visitor's Bench. While my lovely better half is working I am standing with our AD (Home Team) on my right and the Visitor's AD on my left at the Table Side Corner of the "end zone" near the Visitor's Bench watching the game.

V1 has the ball in his team's front court table side and L and T are Table Side and the C is Opposite the Table (obviously); the game officials are assigned by the league and I have never seen any of them before until tonight (It is not unusual for our league to assign officials from 50, 75, or even 100 miles away; we had a varsity football crew from Columbus for one home game this year and Columbus is 150 miles away.)


The Play:

V1 attempts a two-point FG. During rebounding action V2 commits a Common Foul against H2 and the foul is called by the L. As the L moves along the Sideline in front of the Home Bench to report the foul, V2 starts backing out of the paint toward the C's area while H2 is stalking toward him "running" his mouth. H2 catches up to V2 and chest bumps him two times before the T can get to the two players. By this time players from both players have started to pull H2 and V2 out of the area and C steps in and gives a very demonstrative manner. The the fun really begins because H6 then leaves the Home Bench, runs onto the court under Team H's basketball and starts yelling at V2.

I will know stop and let everybody decide how to handle this situation. Because of the weather, I have not had a chance to get to the H.S. to look at the game tape, but I will let everybody know how it was handled in a day or two after everybody has had a chance to post his or her two cents.

MTD, Sr.
Common foul on V2...Two shots for H2 by virtue of the double bonus.
Technical foul on H2...Two shots for the technical.
Flagrant T on H6 due to coming off the bench during a potential fight. Two shots for V and a throw in at half court. Player H6 is disqualified for the remainder of the game.
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Old Wed Dec 15, 2010, 10:05pm
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*Common foul on V2.
*Technical foul on H2.
*Flagrant technical foul on H6.

H6 is DQed.
H2 shoots two free throws, with the lane cleared.
V shoots four free throws, with the lane cleared, and gets the ball at the division line.
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Old Wed Dec 15, 2010, 10:29pm
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Also an indirect to the Home HC because H6 is bench personnel.
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Old Wed Dec 15, 2010, 11:42pm
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Agree with the above answers.
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Old Fri Dec 17, 2010, 06:40am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
For those that do not know, my dear, smart (I know, she married me, go figure), and beautiful wife have been co-vice president the athletic boosters club for the last six years and this past Friday night we were selling tee-shirts, sweat shirts, help the girls' basketball team with the 50/50 raffle, etc. during the boys' JV/VAR doubleheader with the school's arch rival and league opponent: The high school that is literally just 1.5 miles down the street.


The Set-up::

Late in the second quarter with both teams in the double bonus. The Visitor's Superintendent of Schools (who is a H.S. basketball official) is sitting in the stands with his wife and their children a few rows above the Visitor's Bench. While my lovely better half is working I am standing with our AD (Home Team) on my right and the Visitor's AD on my left at the Table Side Corner of the "end zone" near the Visitor's Bench watching the game.

V1 has the ball in his team's front court table side and L and T are Table Side and the C is Opposite the Table (obviously); the game officials are assigned by the league and I have never seen any of them before until tonight (It is not unusual for our league to assign officials from 50, 75, or even 100 miles away; we had a varsity football crew from Columbus for one home game this year and Columbus is 150 miles away.)


The Play:

V1 attempts a two-point FG. During rebounding action V2 commits a Common Foul against H2 and the foul is called by the L. As the L moves along the Sideline in front of the Home Bench to report the foul, V2 starts backing out of the paint toward the C's area while H2 is stalking toward him "running" his mouth. H2 catches up to V2 and chest bumps him two times before the T can get to the two players. By this time players from both players have started to pull H2 and V2 out of the area and C steps in and gives a very demonstrative manner. The the fun really begins because H6 then leaves the Home Bench, runs onto the court under Team H's basketball and starts yelling at V2.

I will know stop and let everybody decide how to handle this situation. Because of the weather, I have not had a chance to get to the H.S. to look at the game tape, but I will let everybody know how it was handled in a day or two after everybody has had a chance to post his or her two cents.

MTD, Sr.

Okay, here is how it went down:

1) V2 was charged with a common foul against H2.

2) H2 and V2 were charged with a Double TF (I know, I was suprised too, but hey it was what it was.)

3) A6 was charge with a Flagrant TF and disqualified for leaving the bench.

4) Play was resumed with H2 shooting a double bonus with players lined up along the free throw lane. (Point of Interruption for the Double TF.)

5) No free throws were shot as the penalty for A6's Flagrant TF and H-HC was not denied the use of the Coaching Box. (I know, I know. I have no idea why H2 did not shot his bonus free throws with the free throw lane cleared followed by Team V shooting two free throws with the laned cleared and then getting the ball for at throw-in at the division line opposite the Scorer's/Timer's Table with H-HC losing his Coaching Box privilege, but this is how it went.)

MTD, Sr.


P.S. Team V won the game by three points, so it really didn't need those two free throws.
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Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials
Ohio High School Athletic Association
International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials
Toledo, Ohio
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Old Fri Dec 17, 2010, 01:45pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
For those that do not know, my dear, smart (I know, she married me, go figure), and beautiful wife have been co-vice president the athletic boosters club for the last six years and this past Friday night we were selling tee-shirts, sweat shirts, help the girls' basketball team with the 50/50 raffle, etc. during the boys' JV/VAR doubleheader with the school's arch rival and league opponent: The high school that is literally just 1.5 miles down the street.


The Set-up::

Late in the second quarter with both teams in the double bonus. The Visitor's Superintendent of Schools (who is a H.S. basketball official) is sitting in the stands with his wife and their children a few rows above the Visitor's Bench. While my lovely better half is working I am standing with our AD (Home Team) on my right and the Visitor's AD on my left at the Table Side Corner of the "end zone" near the Visitor's Bench watching the game.

V1 has the ball in his team's front court table side and L and T are Table Side and the C is Opposite the Table (obviously); the game officials are assigned by the league and I have never seen any of them before until tonight (It is not unusual for our league to assign officials from 50, 75, or even 100 miles away; we had a varsity football crew from Columbus for one home game this year and Columbus is 150 miles away.)


The Play:

V1 attempts a two-point FG. During rebounding action V2 commits a Common Foul against H2 and the foul is called by the L. As the L moves along the Sideline in front of the Home Bench to report the foul, V2 starts backing out of the paint toward the C's area while H2 is stalking toward him "running" his mouth. H2 catches up to V2 and chest bumps him two times before the T can get to the two players. By this time players from both players have started to pull H2 and V2 out of the area and C steps in and gives a very demonstrative manner. The the fun really begins because H6 then leaves the Home Bench, runs onto the court under Team H's basketball and starts yelling at V2.

I will know stop and let everybody decide how to handle this situation. Because of the weather, I have not had a chance to get to the H.S. to look at the game tape, but I will let everybody know how it was handled in a day or two after everybody has had a chance to post his or her two cents.

MTD, Sr.
Either you need more sleep or less eggnog.
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Old Fri Dec 17, 2010, 02:37pm
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Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Either you need more sleep or less eggnog.

NevadaRef:

I need more sleep, and more ale (can't stand eggnog), . Now where is that serving wench, , I mean my lovely wife, .

MTD, Sr.
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Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials
Ohio High School Athletic Association
International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials
Toledo, Ohio
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Old Fri Dec 17, 2010, 02:46pm
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Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Either you need more sleep or less eggnog.

NevadaRef:

The scary part is you knew what I meant, .

MTD, Sr.
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Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials
Ohio High School Athletic Association
International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials
Toledo, Ohio
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Old Fri Dec 17, 2010, 02:56pm
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I could see a double T

Your post said that V2 and H2 were pulled out of the area by players from their respective teams. This seems to indicate to me that V2 may have retaliated. Now, I agree from your description that H2 was the instigator and that if V2 said or did nothing, then a double T would not have been warranted. However, I am wondering about V2's reaction since he had to be removed from the area. How did V2 react to the chest bump?
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Old Fri Dec 17, 2010, 03:19pm
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Just a followup question - does this situation fit the definition of a fight? And, if not, should the player leaving the bench have been given a flagrant T for leaving the bench during a fight, or another penalty?
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Old Fri Dec 17, 2010, 03:28pm
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Just a followup question - does this situation fit the definition of a fight? And, if not, should the player leaving the bench have been given a flagrant T for leaving the bench during a fight, or another penalty?
It doesn't have to be a fight to warrant issuing flagrant technical fouls. The rule (10-4-5) also says that it's a flagrant "T" if they leave the confines of a bench when a fight might break out. That fits in with this particular situation imo.
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Old Fri Dec 17, 2010, 03:37pm
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Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee View Post
It doesn't have to be a fight to warrant issuing flagrant technical fouls. The rule (10-4-5) also says that it's a flagrant "T" if they leave the confines of a bench when a fight might break out. That fits in with this particular situation imo.
Agreed that flagrants can be issued for other reasons - however, some states would have different penalties beyond the game in question based on whether the flagrant was under a "fighting" provision or not. I've never really had the discussion of what "when a fight may break out" really is.

Personally, a kid leaving a bench to come onto the court to talk trash to a player is likely getting a flagrant T for unsportsmanlike conduct from me regardless.
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Old Fri Dec 17, 2010, 04:04pm
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Agreed that flagrants can be issued for other reasons - however, some states would have different penalties beyond the game in question based on whether the flagrant was under a "fighting" provision or not. I've never really had the discussion of what "when a fight may break out" really is.

Personally, a kid leaving a bench to come onto the court to talk trash to a player is likely getting a flagrant T for unsportsmanlike conduct from me regardless.
There's no difference by rule as to whether a player tossed for leaving the bench was tossed because there was a fight going on or because there might have been a fight occur. Same-same. The states would have to consider them the exact same also because they're the same rule.

As to the meaning of "when a fight may break out", when they put the rule in the 2004-05 rulebook, they told us verbatim:
PLAYER(S) EJECTED FOR LEAVING BENCH IF FIGHT MAY OCCUR:
A bench player will now be ejected if he or she leaves the confines of the bench during a fight or when a fight may be break out. Previously there was no coverage in the rules book when bench personnel left the bench when two or more players confronted one another but no fight occurred. These volatile situations can easily degenerate into a fight or worse by the presence of team members from the bench. The penalty is now the same as for leaving the bench during a fight.

That makes it a complete no-brainer. If 2 or more players confront each other, you apply this rule. It doesn't have to be an actual fight. The player that left the bench gets a flagrant "T" under NFHS rule 10-4-5.

Last edited by Jurassic Referee; Fri Dec 17, 2010 at 04:07pm.
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Old Fri Dec 17, 2010, 04:27pm
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Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee View Post
There's no difference by rule as to whether a player tossed for leaving the bench was tossed because there was a fight going on or because there might have been a fight occur. Same-same. The states would have to consider them the exact same also because they're the same rule.

As to the meaning of "when a fight may break out", when they put the rule in the 2004-05 rulebook, they told us verbatim:
PLAYER(S) EJECTED FOR LEAVING BENCH IF FIGHT MAY OCCUR:
A bench player will now be ejected if he or she leaves the confines of the bench during a fight or when a fight may be break out. Previously there was no coverage in the rules book when bench personnel left the bench when two or more players confronted one another but no fight occurred. These volatile situations can easily degenerate into a fight or worse by the presence of team members from the bench. The penalty is now the same as for leaving the bench during a fight.

That makes it a complete no-brainer. If 2 or more players confront each other, you apply this rule. It doesn't have to be an actual fight. The player that left the bench gets a flagrant "T" under NFHS rule 10-4-5.
Thanks for that. And, just to clarify, I agree states would treat "fight" and "might be a fight" the same. They may not treat a flagrant foul that isn't related to a fight the same. That's what I was asking.

But, after reading your citation, I agree there's little way you could look at this as anything other than "might be a fight."

Gracias.
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