2011 Tournament Discussion Redux

[Nevadaref]

NCAA admits to error in Syracuse loss

NewsCore

Updated Mar 22, 2011 6:22 PM ET
SYRACUSE, N.Y.

The NCAA confirmed Tuesday that a crucial end-of-game backcourt violation was incorrectly whistled against Syracuse during the team's season-ending NCAA Tournament loss Sunday to Marquette.

The score was tied at 59 with 51 seconds remaining and the Orange were inbounding the ball in the frontcourt after a stoppage. Dion Waiters threw the ball in to guard Scoop Jardine, who jumped to catch it and landed with part of his foot touching the halfcourt line.
"The Syracuse player made a legal play and no violation should have been called," NCAA officials coordinator John Adams told Syracuse.com.
According to the NCAA rulebook, "After a jump ball or during a throw-in, the player in his/her frontcourt, who makes the initial touch on the ball while both feet are off the playing court, may be the first to secure control of the ball and land with one or both feet in the backcourt. It makes no difference if the first foot down was in the front court or back court."
After the call, Marquette took possession and guard Darius Johnson-Odom made a decisive three-pointer to give the Golden Eagles a 62-59 lead, en route to a 66-62 win. Marquette advanced to face North Carolina in the Sweet 16 Friday night.

The blown call is the latest in a string of controversial officiating decisions that occurred over the weekend in the NCAA Tournament.
On Sunday, a questionable five-second violation cost Texas in the waning seconds of its loss to Arizona. Replays showed that Texas guard Cory Joseph was not given a full five seconds by the official before his attempt to call timeout was denied.
In the final moments of North Carolina's win over Washington Sunday, replays showed that the Huskies should have been given another second on the clock to try a last-second shot in an 86-83 loss. The officials opted not to review when the ball touched out of bounds on the preceding shot, leaving Washington with 0.5 seconds for a final desperation play.
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Of course, we agree that he traveled.

[WreckRef]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

NCAA admits to error in Syracuse loss

NewsCore

Updated Mar 22, 2011 6:22 PM ET
SYRACUSE, N.Y.

The NCAA confirmed Tuesday that a crucial end-of-game backcourt violation was incorrectly whistled against Syracuse during the team's season-ending NCAA Tournament loss Sunday to Marquette.

The score was tied at 59 with 51 seconds remaining and the Orange were inbounding the ball in the frontcourt after a stoppage. Dion Waiters threw the ball in to guard Scoop Jardine, who jumped to catch it and landed with part of his foot touching the halfcourt line.
"The Syracuse player made a legal play and no violation should have been called," NCAA officials coordinator John Adams told Syracuse.com.
According to the NCAA rulebook, "After a jump ball or during a throw-in, the player in his/her frontcourt, who makes the initial touch on the ball while both feet are off the playing court, may be the first to secure control of the ball and land with one or both feet in the backcourt. It makes no difference if the first foot down was in the front court or back court."
After the call, Marquette took possession and guard Darius Johnson-Odom made a decisive three-pointer to give the Golden Eagles a 62-59 lead, en route to a 66-62 win. Marquette advanced to face North Carolina in the Sweet 16 Friday night.

The blown call is the latest in a string of controversial officiating decisions that occurred over the weekend in the NCAA Tournament.
On Sunday, a questionable five-second violation cost Texas in the waning seconds of its loss to Arizona. Replays showed that Texas guard Cory Joseph was not given a full five seconds by the official before his attempt to call timeout was denied.
In the final moments of North Carolina's win over Washington Sunday, replays showed that the Huskies should have been given another second on the clock to try a last-second shot in an 86-83 loss. The officials opted not to review when the ball touched out of bounds on the preceding shot, leaving Washington with 0.5 seconds for a final desperation play.
==============================
Of course, we agree that he traveled.

I've officiated various sports for 22 years and coached various youth sports for 17 years.

What I always told my players was that blown calls DO NOT LOSE games, poor execution loses games.

The refs didn't shoot the ball for us, commit our turnovers, commit our fouls, miss our free throws or let the other team score.

We may disagree with the final call or a couple of calls during the game but we still had 31:59 to score another basket, make another free throw or stop the other team from scoring. To blame the officials is a cop out in my opinion.

[biz]

I think that the missed b/c violation is a good lesson for all of us as officials. We do all agree that after a few looks at slow-motion replay that Jardine traveled, but the lesson that should be gathered is this: We can miss occasional marginal travels, we can miss the odd bang-bang block/charge call, these are judgement calls that are difficult to make with one look and are not going to be 100% correct, but it is our job to know and apply the rules correctly. I feel for my brother official for kicking this call on a stage as large as the NCAA tournament, because I know that no one feels worse than he does.

[Jurassic Referee]

As per John Adams, a 5-second call is the same as any other judgment call. And istant replay wouldn't be applicable because you couldn't get conclusive evidence, not knowing the quickness of the count.

Head of officials defends NCAA tournament officiating - Campus Rivalry: College Football & Basketball News, Recruiting, Game Picks, and More - USATODAY.com

Makes sense to me.

[biz]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

As per John Adams, a 5-second call is the same as any other judgment call. And istant replay wouldn't be applicable because you couldn't get conclusive evidence, not knowing the quickness of the count.

Head of officials defends NCAA tournament officiating - Campus Rivalry: College Football & Basketball News, Recruiting, Game Picks, and More - USATODAY.com

Makes sense to me.

I agree in part, but the whole idea of the visible count is to show that the official is counting and the arm swings give an idea of how fast or slow the official's count is. Adams' explaination does not go into the mechanics of making the 5-second call without 5 arm swings.

This is an extreme parallel example, but what if an official called a 5-second closely guarded violation without making any arm swings but he says that he counted to 5 in his head? IMO, while the violation might be the correct call the official has made a grave mistake in mechanics. We have mechanics for consistency and clarity and it's important for us as officials to be mechanically sound.

Dick Cartmell is a great official and is usually working on the 2nd weekend of the tournament. If we don't see him I would guess that it would be because of this play, but my guess is that he will work a game this weekend.

[APG]

Originally Posted by biz

This is an extreme parallel example, but what if an official called a 5-second closely guarded violation without making any arm swings but he says that he counted to 5 in his head? IMO, while the violation might be the correct call the official has made a grave mistake in mechanics. We have mechanics for consistency and clarity and it's important for us as officials to be mechanically sound.

I would say this situation is even worse. If we didn't swing in this situation, the coach and player would assume a player wasn't within the required distance. I also agree that Adams has failed to talk about the mechanics of the play. You can say you counted to five, but when you're required to show your count to five and the tape doesn't support it, it's hard to support you.

[jophyal]

I agree with the mechanics angle. If the call was made and mechanics were proper, a referee could state that. Hiding behind 80% rule, making up rules, and/or guessing short changes us all. Players, fans, officials, etc... would be better served if the calling official made a statement and stuck by it. Jim Joyce made a call, stated it was the best call he could make, and took his medicine like a MAN. Why is it so hard to admit that we, as officials, kick one every now and then. The ego of some of these Confereneces and officials is exactly why people are clammering for instant replay and gaining ground. Look at NFL's rule change yesterday concerning all scores being able to be reviewed without challenges. Just sayin'...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by jophyal

Jim Joyce made a call, stated it was the best call he could make, and took his medicine like a MAN. Why is it so hard to admit that we, as officials, kick one every now and then. The ego of some of these Confereneces and officials is exactly why people are clammering for instant replay and gaining ground. Look at NFL's rule change yesterday concerning all scores being able to be reviewed without challenges. Just sayin'...

And afaik Dick Cartmell honestly believed he made the correct call on this play as per his own personal 5-second count. Do you know something different that we don't know?

It was a judgment call. Officials are human, not robots. Do you honestly believe there is any mechanic anywhere that would make every D1 official's count come out to exactly 5.0 seconds every single time?

Instead of questioning Cartmell's judgment on one particular call, you chose instead to indict his character for not admitting a possible mistake in judgment. Well, that's just wrong imo.

Just saying...

[ILRef80]

Originally Posted by jophyal

I agree with the mechanics angle. If the call was made and mechanics were proper, a referee could state that. Hiding behind 80% rule, making up rules, and/or guessing short changes us all. Players, fans, officials, etc... would be better served if the calling official made a statement and stuck by it. Jim Joyce made a call, stated it was the best call he could make, and took his medicine like a MAN. Why is it so hard to admit that we, as officials, kick one every now and then. The ego of some of these Confereneces and officials is exactly why people are clammering for instant replay and gaining ground. Look at NFL's rule change yesterday concerning all scores being able to be reviewed without challenges. Just sayin'...

+1. We are humans and we can make mistakes. I think everyone understands that. It just hurts our credibility when we fail to admit a mistake.

Cartmell is an excellent official. This blown call doesn't change that. But, c'mon, in a game and spot of that magnitude, your arm swings have to match your count. It's really that simple, IMO. I think he may have gotten caught up in the moment...who knows? It happens. But, that doesn't change the fact that a mistake was probably made.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by biz

Adams' explaination does not go into the mechanics of making the 5-second call without 5 arm swings.

Interesting point except that his arm with up halfway through the 5th swing....which is exactly the point the violation should occur. The big problem was that his first swing occur much less than 1 second after the player got the ball....that is where they player was shorted.