2011 Tournament Discussion Redux

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ILRef80

+1. We are humans and we can make mistakes. I think everyone understands that. It just hurts our credibility when we fail to admit a mistake.

Cartmell is an excellent official. This blown call doesn't change that. But, c'mon, in a game and spot of that magnitude, your arm swings have to match your count. It's really that simple, IMO. I think he may have gotten caught up in the moment...who knows? It happens. But, that doesn't change the fact that a mistake was made.

Seriously? You think he should come on ESPN with a huge mea culpa? Really?

Wow.

[ILRef80]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Seriously? You think he should come on ESPN with a huge mea culpa? Really?

Wow.

Not at all. But, I don't think he should have referred to the 5 second count in his head. All I'm trying to say is that, in my opinion, you don't make that call until you complete the 5th arm swing. It's such a crucial call, why not err on the side of having your mechanics match your call? I mean, isn't that why we provide visible counts in the first place?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ILRef80

Not at all. But, I don't think he should have referred to the 5 second count in his head. All I'm trying to say is that, in my opinion, you don't make that call until you complete the 5th arm swing. It's such a crucial call, why not err on the side of having your mechanics match your call? I mean, isn't that why we provide visible counts in the first place?

But you were giving a +1 to a post that, what, says he should have come out and announced his error a la Jim Joyce?

Or are you agreeing that people here were hiding behind the old 80% rule.

I found both comments to indicate a lack of reading comprehension; or he just skimmed the entire thread before commenting.

[jophyal]

I like the lack of reading comprehension comment... I can't speak for everyone in this site but 15 pages is hard to keep up with. My points were not as succinct as you experts who dominate this site. I am just looking to grow. That being said, again, I have not anyone bring up the mechanic of tossing the ball to player on endline. I was taught to hand the ball to the player. Who tosses the ball and who hands it to inbounding player?

[jophyal]

I never said he should come out. My point was that all of you are timing and debating this. All it takes is someone, any of us officials, to say something like,"I can see where people are confused. I should have done a better job by (fill in the blank). Are we better than anyone else who admits mistakes, errors, or admitys they could have done a better job. Oh yeah, I have noticed in my few posts that you select few are the end all.

Get better! Isn't that what we all want??

[Adam]

Originally Posted by jophyal

I never said he should come out. My point was that all of you are timing and debating this. All it takes is someone, any of us officials, to say something like,"I can see where people are confused. I should have done a better job by (fill in the blank). Are we better than anyone else who admits mistakes, errors, or admitys they could have done a better job.

That seems to have been the consensus here, from what I've read. His mechanics were off, but the call was pretty close.

Originally Posted by jophyal

Oh yeah, I have noticed in my few posts that you select few are the end all.

???

Originally Posted by jophyal

Get better! Isn't that what we all want??

How does that apply?

[jophyal]

We are here to get better... I was hoping with all the sarcasm you throw around you could have gotten it. Like my posts, I will work harder at making things easier to understand.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Difference being that the Syracuse mistake was a mis-application of the rules. Cartmell's call was a judgement call. We've all seen the replay and have our opinion about Cartmell's mechanics (and I believe he should have granted a TO) but it still comes down to whether or not Cartmell felt he reached 5 before the player requested a timeout. All the rest of us are doing is speculating.

There is no speculation that the backcourt call was wrong, it's a fact, and it's been acknowledged.

Y'all just saved me from commenting on a coupla posts, Newz. All I have to say now is that you're wise beyond your years.

Agree completely and I couldn't have put it better.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

But you were giving a +1 to a post that, what, says he should have come out and announced his error a la Jim Joyce?

Or are you agreeing that people here were hiding behind the old 80% rule.

I found both comments to indicate a lack of reading comprehension; or he just skimmed the entire thread before commenting.

I had a call in my most recent game on a 10 second violation. There was a simultaneous whistle from the lead near the offensive team's bench. A time out was requested. And granted. (In the old days, it would have been too late. But, only players could request one back then. And I do not remember any instances of the other official granting one at 9 seconds. How would they know if they are watching their primary?) In any event, we went with the time out call as I am positive the request came before my 10th arm swing. Bottom line, if you are having trouble inbounding, don't wait till you are near the end of the count to request a TO.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Y'all just saved me from commenting on a coupla posts, Newz. All I have to say now is that you're wise beyond your years.

Agree completely and I couldn't have put it better.

Reminds me of one five second violation call I made a few years back. Near the team bench, as I am putting air into the whistle, the coach requested a time out. I asked him if he still wanted it.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by jophyal

We are here to get better... I was hoping with all the sarcasm you throw around you could have gotten it. Like my posts, I will work harder at making things easier to understand.

Oh, I know we're here to get better. Well, except for Jurassic. I think he's serving some sort of Community Service penalty or something.

My point was, what does that have to do with the comments made thus far? You accused the board of hiding behind a non-existent rule. You insinuate that he shouldn't isolate his admission to internal ears at the NCAA and compare it to Jim Joyce, then deny you think he should have gone public with his apology. I'm trying to figure out what you meant.

If you are trying to say he could have done better, no one disagrees with that.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Oh, I know we're here to get better. Well, except for Jurassic. I think he's serving some sort of Community Service penalty or something.

Yup, I was convicted and sentenced to spend a minimum of 5 hours each day arguing with azzholes.

It's cruel and inhumane punishment but I'll try to suffer through it.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

Reminds me of one five second violation call I made a few years back. Near the team bench, as I am putting air into the whistle, the coach requested a time out. I asked him if he still wanted it.

Yup. Exact same story as granting a TO versus blowing your whistle to confirm that it's been granted. There's always that little time lag.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by jophyal

We are here to get better... I was hoping with all the sarcasm you throw around you could have gotten it. Like my posts, I will work harder at making things easier to understand.

Well, based on what I've read through 15 pages my earlier post pretty much sums it up.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Difference being that the Syracuse mistake was a mis-application of the rules. Cartmell's call was a judgement call. We've all seen the replay and have our opinion about Cartmell's mechanics (and I believe he should have granted a TO) but it still comes down to whether or not Cartmell felt he reached 5 before the player requested a timeout. All the rest of us are doing is speculating.

There is no speculation that the backcourt call was wrong, it's a fact, and it's been acknowledged.

I have heard I am wise beyond my years.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I have heard I am wise beyond my years.

Maybe, but you were told that by a Yankee fan, so take it FWIW.