2011 Tournament Discussion Redux

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by fiasco

Seth Freaking Davis...this is the same guy who cried for hours and hours about a so-called travel on an up-and-under move by Georgetown's Jeff Green in an Elite 8 game against North Carolina.

When it was finally explained to him what a travel actually is, Davis had the audacity to go to the slow-mo replay zoomed in on Green's foot to show that he lifted it about a half an inch off the floor, so technically he did travel.

Davis has since recanted his stupid-ness via twitter.

Dolt.

The game was against Vanderbilt and it was in the 2008 Sweet 16. Georgetown won 66-65 and advanced to meet North Carolina in the Elite Eight. Georgetown won that game in OT to advance to the Final Four.

[eyezen]

Originally Posted by fiasco

So I turned the TV off not long after the Arizona game, but I have a friend who was telling me later that John Adams came back on the show and referenced the "4-second" timeout rule in defending the referee, esssentially saying the rule IS in the book. Did anyone else see this or was my buddy mistaken??

I too would like to know whats JA said about this...the fan boards are all over this one...not that they're ever right but its really got their attention.

Was this EVER a rule and if so when did it change?

[Johnny Ringo]

I am surprised nobody has questioned the travel that might have happened in the play following the 5-second violation? #23 caught the ball with right foot on ground making it the pivot and then stepped with left foot hitting ground picking up right foot (pivot) and putting it back to the floor and jumping off two feet.

Travel?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

He aborted his 5th stroke to blow his whistle and looked like, to me at least, that he thought about granting the time-out and then decided to call the 5-second violation.

Me personally, I'm granting the time-out in that situation.

I just timed, with a stopwatch, from the instant he caught the ball to the movement of the arm for the violation. After about a 7-8 trials, I keep getting from 4.95 to 5.75.

It sure felt fast and it is hard to sync exactly with the short, grainy video clip but it really seems to be right on the money.

I think we're all just used to slow counts on throwins....I know when I've timed other officials in an evaluation, I've never found even one to be accurate in their pace...most are about 50% too slow or worse.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Berkut

If he had signalled the violation at a measure 5.5, with an arm swing at 4, I could maybe see your point.

The fact that he was early AND his arm swing was on 4 makes it a bit problematic. Considering that the player was asking for a TO when he made the call...ugggh. That is very ugly.

His arm was on the 5th swing when he put it up for the violation, not the 4th. Not everone swings "0".

[APG]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I just timed, with a stopwatch, from the instant he caught the ball to the movement of the arm for the violation. After about a 7-8 trials, I keep getting from 4.95 to 5.75.

It sure felt fast and it is hard to sync exactly with the short, grainy video clip but it really seems to be right on the money.

I think we're all just used to slow counts on throwins....I know when I've timed other officials in an evaluation, I've never found even one to be accurate in their pace...most are about 50% too slow or worse.

I got closer to 4.2-4.5. I never got anywhere north of 5 much less closer to 5.75. Various sporting networks I've seen at most had 4.9.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by eyezen

I too would like to know whats JA said about this...the fan boards are all over this one...not that they're ever right but its really got their attention.

Was this EVER a rule and if so when did it change?

Before the gap, there was the 80% rule. Once a count reached 80% of the total for a violation, a timeout could not be granted. 8 seconds of the 10 second count. 4 seconds of any 5 second count. Not sure when that changed.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

I got closer to 4.2-4.5. I never got anywhere north of 5 much less closer to 5.75. Various sporting networks I've seen at most had 4.9.

It all depends on when you judge that he caught the ball....and I was being generous to the official....the earliest possible point that the player touched the ball. Even if it measured out at 5.0, it was uncharacteristically quick.

[Mendy Trent]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

I got closer to 4.2-4.5. I never got anywhere north of 5 much less closer to 5.75. Various sporting networks I've seen at most had 4.9.

I have heard Dick Cartmell lecture at camps a few times. He ALWAYS makes a big deal about "not splitting hairs on travels..... don't make marginal calls".... I think he should have taken his own advice on this play and granted the time-out.

[APG]

Originally Posted by Mendy Trent

I have heard Dick Cartmell lecture at camps a few times. He ALWAYS makes a big deal about "not splitting hairs on travels..... don't make marginal calls".... I think he should have taken his own advice on this play and granted the time-out.

It looked and sounded to me like timeout was asked for before the end of the count. It looked like he had already decided to call the violation.

[Nevadaref]

NCAA admits to error in Syracuse loss

NewsCore

Updated Mar 22, 2011 6:22 PM ET
SYRACUSE, N.Y.

The NCAA confirmed Tuesday that a crucial end-of-game backcourt violation was incorrectly whistled against Syracuse during the team's season-ending NCAA Tournament loss Sunday to Marquette.

The score was tied at 59 with 51 seconds remaining and the Orange were inbounding the ball in the frontcourt after a stoppage. Dion Waiters threw the ball in to guard Scoop Jardine, who jumped to catch it and landed with part of his foot touching the halfcourt line.
"The Syracuse player made a legal play and no violation should have been called," NCAA officials coordinator John Adams told Syracuse.com.
According to the NCAA rulebook, "After a jump ball or during a throw-in, the player in his/her frontcourt, who makes the initial touch on the ball while both feet are off the playing court, may be the first to secure control of the ball and land with one or both feet in the backcourt. It makes no difference if the first foot down was in the front court or back court."
After the call, Marquette took possession and guard Darius Johnson-Odom made a decisive three-pointer to give the Golden Eagles a 62-59 lead, en route to a 66-62 win. Marquette advanced to face North Carolina in the Sweet 16 Friday night.

The blown call is the latest in a string of controversial officiating decisions that occurred over the weekend in the NCAA Tournament.
On Sunday, a questionable five-second violation cost Texas in the waning seconds of its loss to Arizona. Replays showed that Texas guard Cory Joseph was not given a full five seconds by the official before his attempt to call timeout was denied.
In the final moments of North Carolina's win over Washington Sunday, replays showed that the Huskies should have been given another second on the clock to try a last-second shot in an 86-83 loss. The officials opted not to review when the ball touched out of bounds on the preceding shot, leaving Washington with 0.5 seconds for a final desperation play.
==============================
Of course, we agree that he traveled.

[WreckRef]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

NCAA admits to error in Syracuse loss

NewsCore

Updated Mar 22, 2011 6:22 PM ET
SYRACUSE, N.Y.

The NCAA confirmed Tuesday that a crucial end-of-game backcourt violation was incorrectly whistled against Syracuse during the team's season-ending NCAA Tournament loss Sunday to Marquette.

The score was tied at 59 with 51 seconds remaining and the Orange were inbounding the ball in the frontcourt after a stoppage. Dion Waiters threw the ball in to guard Scoop Jardine, who jumped to catch it and landed with part of his foot touching the halfcourt line.
"The Syracuse player made a legal play and no violation should have been called," NCAA officials coordinator John Adams told Syracuse.com.
According to the NCAA rulebook, "After a jump ball or during a throw-in, the player in his/her frontcourt, who makes the initial touch on the ball while both feet are off the playing court, may be the first to secure control of the ball and land with one or both feet in the backcourt. It makes no difference if the first foot down was in the front court or back court."
After the call, Marquette took possession and guard Darius Johnson-Odom made a decisive three-pointer to give the Golden Eagles a 62-59 lead, en route to a 66-62 win. Marquette advanced to face North Carolina in the Sweet 16 Friday night.

The blown call is the latest in a string of controversial officiating decisions that occurred over the weekend in the NCAA Tournament.
On Sunday, a questionable five-second violation cost Texas in the waning seconds of its loss to Arizona. Replays showed that Texas guard Cory Joseph was not given a full five seconds by the official before his attempt to call timeout was denied.
In the final moments of North Carolina's win over Washington Sunday, replays showed that the Huskies should have been given another second on the clock to try a last-second shot in an 86-83 loss. The officials opted not to review when the ball touched out of bounds on the preceding shot, leaving Washington with 0.5 seconds for a final desperation play.
==============================
Of course, we agree that he traveled.

I've officiated various sports for 22 years and coached various youth sports for 17 years.

What I always told my players was that blown calls DO NOT LOSE games, poor execution loses games.

The refs didn't shoot the ball for us, commit our turnovers, commit our fouls, miss our free throws or let the other team score.

We may disagree with the final call or a couple of calls during the game but we still had 31:59 to score another basket, make another free throw or stop the other team from scoring. To blame the officials is a cop out in my opinion.

[biz]

I think that the missed b/c violation is a good lesson for all of us as officials. We do all agree that after a few looks at slow-motion replay that Jardine traveled, but the lesson that should be gathered is this: We can miss occasional marginal travels, we can miss the odd bang-bang block/charge call, these are judgement calls that are difficult to make with one look and are not going to be 100% correct, but it is our job to know and apply the rules correctly. I feel for my brother official for kicking this call on a stage as large as the NCAA tournament, because I know that no one feels worse than he does.

[Jurassic Referee]

As per John Adams, a 5-second call is the same as any other judgment call. And istant replay wouldn't be applicable because you couldn't get conclusive evidence, not knowing the quickness of the count.

Head of officials defends NCAA tournament officiating - Campus Rivalry: College Football & Basketball News, Recruiting, Game Picks, and More - USATODAY.com

Makes sense to me.

[biz]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

As per John Adams, a 5-second call is the same as any other judgment call. And istant replay wouldn't be applicable because you couldn't get conclusive evidence, not knowing the quickness of the count.

Head of officials defends NCAA tournament officiating - Campus Rivalry: College Football & Basketball News, Recruiting, Game Picks, and More - USATODAY.com

Makes sense to me.

I agree in part, but the whole idea of the visible count is to show that the official is counting and the arm swings give an idea of how fast or slow the official's count is. Adams' explaination does not go into the mechanics of making the 5-second call without 5 arm swings.

This is an extreme parallel example, but what if an official called a 5-second closely guarded violation without making any arm swings but he says that he counted to 5 in his head? IMO, while the violation might be the correct call the official has made a grave mistake in mechanics. We have mechanics for consistency and clarity and it's important for us as officials to be mechanically sound.

Dick Cartmell is a great official and is usually working on the 2nd weekend of the tournament. If we don't see him I would guess that it would be because of this play, but my guess is that he will work a game this weekend.