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Old Sat Apr 05, 2008, 10:36pm
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DP/Flex Redux

I am wondering what it is about this rule that people just can't get straight. Why does it seem to confuse so many??

Last night working a varsity game for a fairly big (4A) school, with a usually knowledgeable and always straightforward coach. He wants to put his DP in on defense for his FLEX. Fine, says I. Later, he switches them again. Again, no problem. Then, an inning or so later, he wants the DP back in on defense for the FLEX. Says I, "are you sure?" He picks up on this and asks why. I tell him that if he makes this move again, his FLEX will have no more re-entry rights, and that he will either stay at nine or have to sub in one of his two remaining sub as the FLEX. He starts to argue, but then asks, "are you sure?" I answer in the affirmative. (I have known this coach for many years, and there is a good rapport between us.) So, he decides against it, but tells me, and I believe him on this, because, as I have said, he has always been straightforward and honest, "I have done this two or three times this year without a problem. Nobody has ever stopped me. Last week I substituted them like this three or four times." I simply apologized for this having happened, and assured him that I was enforcing the rule.

Then, a while back, I was working with a 20 year vet at a tournament. One coach comes up at the beginning of the game and asks my partner, who is PU, if he needs to know when he makes defensive moves between the DP and the FLEX. My partner's response? "No, I don't care about defensive moves." I stop them there and say 'yes coach, he would like to know when you make any move involving the DP/FLEX." Coach says "I thought so." My partner and I get into a discussion, where he says I don't care what they do defensively, any nine out of the ten can play defense. I correct him on this and inform him that the FLEX and any eight of the others can play defense, or else the FLEX has been subbed for. He wants to argue.

I am getting frustrated that so many people are making a relatively simple rule so difficult, and making the rest of us look bad.

Thanks for letting me vent.
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Old Sat Apr 05, 2008, 10:52pm
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I think that part of the problem is that in the different divisions and different sanctioning bodies there are too many variations on extra players and how they are used. Another part of the problem is people insist that the rule is complex and so it is a self-fulfilling thing for them.
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Old Sun Apr 06, 2008, 10:15am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skahtboi
Then, a while back, I was working with a 20 year vet at a tournament. One coach comes up at the beginning of the game and asks my partner, who is PU, if he needs to know when he makes defensive moves between the DP and the FLEX. My partner's response? "No, I don't care about defensive moves." I stop them there and say 'yes coach, he would like to know when you make any move involving the DP/FLEX." Coach says "I thought so." My partner and I get into a discussion, where he says I don't care what they do defensively, any nine out of the ten can play defense. I correct him on this and inform him that the FLEX and any eight of the others can play defense, or else the FLEX has been subbed for. He wants to argue.
Not really and the way you worded this could be an issue. Any 9 can play defense. However, if the FLEX is not one of them, the FLEX has left the game and the line-up has moved to 9. This is not really a substitution as no other player is leaving or entering the game. The DP has not left the game, so there is no issue with a re-entry.

I believe that part of the problem is the folks that insist on using the term Temporary DP. There is no such thing as a TDP and using the term is detrimental to those trying to learn.

Last edited by IRISHMAFIA; Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 11:46am.
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Old Sun Apr 06, 2008, 11:27am
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I run into 2 situations.. free subs or ASA rules. I've never seen a tournament that had modified flex/dp rules.

The problem is too many umpires dont pick up the dang book.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skahtboi
One coach comes up at the beginning of the game and asks my partner, who is PU, if he needs to know when he makes defensive moves between the DP and the FLEX. My partner's response? "No, I don't care about defensive moves." I stop them there and say 'yes coach, he would like to know when you make any move involving the DP/FLEX." Coach says "I thought so." My partner and I get into a discussion, where he says I don't care what they do defensively, any nine out of the ten can play defense. I correct him on this and inform him that the FLEX and any eight of the others can play defense, or else the FLEX has been subbed for. He wants to argue.
I think you threw him under the bus Skah right in front of a coach, and he had a right to be irritated.


I'm rereading the OP several times to try to figure out what Irish is talking about.
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Last edited by wadeintothem; Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 12:24pm.
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Old Sun Apr 06, 2008, 11:38am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota
I think that part of the problem is that in the different divisions and different sanctioning bodies there are too many variations on extra players and how they are used. Another part of the problem is people insist that the rule is complex and so it is a self-fulfilling thing for them.
Agree that most confusion is lack of study, umpires and coaches.

The problem with different sanctions is that many of those rules existed before DP/FLEX was added in its present form. Those who were used to DH, DP, EP, AP, DEFO, etc., etc. try to apply DP/FLEX to what they knew before. It's much easier starting from scratch. Then again, the terminology is not necessarily clear. Besides the re-entry aspects, a common problem is not knowing which is which. And in fact, the terms DP and FLEX in themselves do not make it obvious.
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Old Sun Apr 06, 2008, 11:50am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wadeintothem

I'm rereading the OP several times to try to figure out what Irish is talking about.
I edited my citation to make it easier for you. Scott stated that if the FLEX was not playing defense, she was being subbed for and that just isn't so. If the FLEX is not playing defense, the line-up drops to 9 and there are no subs.
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Old Sun Apr 06, 2008, 12:20pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA
I edited my citation to make it easier for you. Scott stated that if the FLEX was not playing defense, she was being subbed for and that just isn't so. If the FLEX is not playing defense, the line-up drops to 9 and there are no subs.
Thanks! Sorry, all my kids are long past the 5th grade so I dont have anyone to help me out

I had thought his point was whether it was supposed to be reported.. I see now he has a different take on it.

never mind with all.. lol

You guys are confusing me..

Whatever the case, dont throw your partner under the bus, work it out later and not in front of the coach.
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Last edited by wadeintothem; Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 12:29pm.
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Old Sun Apr 06, 2008, 01:04pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skahtboi
Then, a while back, I was working with a 20 year vet at a tournament. One coach comes up at the beginning of the game and asks my partner, who is PU, if he needs to know when he makes defensive moves between the DP and the FLEX. My partner's response? "No, I don't care about defensive moves." I stop them there and say 'yes coach, he would like to know when you make any move involving the DP/FLEX." Coach says "I thought so."
As wade said, I think you did not handle this properly (or at least, not the way I would have handled it - and isn't that the same thing? ) At this point, all you can do it figure he is PU and he is handling the lineup, subs, etc. If you want to discuss it after the plate meeting and before the first pitch (away from the coaches), and try to convince him, fine. Otherwise, DP/FLEX for this game is merely an EP.
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Old Sun Apr 06, 2008, 01:07pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA
... she was being subbed for and that just isn't so. If the FLEX is not playing defense, the line-up drops to 9 and there are no subs.
Well, technically true. But FLEX does leave the game AS IF she had been subbed for and is subject to the re-entry restrictions of the subsitution rule - she either has one re-entry remaining or she is done (depending on what happened before). That's why in my writeup on the rule years ago (when it was still called DP/DEFO) referred to this as a "half substitution."
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Old Sun Apr 06, 2008, 01:19pm
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Some times you understand the rule better before the thread. I would not recommend this thread to anyone. Irish, quit goofing around.
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Old Sun Apr 06, 2008, 04:07pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota
Well, technically true. But FLEX does leave the game AS IF she had been subbed for and is subject to the re-entry restrictions of the subsitution rule - she either has one re-entry remaining or she is done (depending on what happened before). That's why in my writeup on the rule years ago (when it was still called DP/DEFO) referred to this as a "half substitution."
That is what causes the confusion. A substitution is when a player not in the line up enters it to replace a player that is.

When the FLEX does not play defense, they have left the game. There has been no substitution or re-entry. There will be if the FLEX or legal sub enters the game in the FLEX position, but their isn't until that actually happens.
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Old Sun Apr 06, 2008, 08:27pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA
I edited my citation to make it easier for you. Scott stated that if the FLEX was not playing defense, she was being subbed for and that just isn't so. If the FLEX is not playing defense, the line-up drops to 9 and there are no subs.
Right. I could have worded that much better. Thanks for correcting me, but at least you knew what I meant.
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Old Mon Apr 07, 2008, 09:38am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA
I edited my citation to make it easier for you. Scott stated that if the FLEX was not playing defense, she was being subbed for and that just isn't so. If the FLEX is not playing defense, the line-up drops to 9 and there are no subs.
Saying it is not a sub just confuses the issue more; technically the position is not subbed in or out, but the player is.

If the FLEX is not playing defense you are playing with nine. If the player that played the FLEX position is out of the game, then she was either subbed out by a player from the bench (playing 10) or by the DP (playing 9). The DP player that was previously on the bench during the defensive half of the inningis now in the game at that time.

The reverse is true if the DP is no longer in the game; you are playing with nine. If the player that played the DP position is out of the game, then she was either subbed out by a player from the bench (playing 10) or by the FLEX (playing 9). The FLEX player that was previously on the bench during the offensive half of the inning is now in the game at that time.

Changes to the DP/FLEX players are controlled by the Substitution Rules, including ReEntry, Unreported Sub, and Illegal Sub. I find the rule easier to understand when I consider player changes as substitutions.

WMB

Last edited by WestMichBlue; Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 09:40am.
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Old Mon Apr 07, 2008, 10:10am
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Scott - I just wanted to let you know that I feel your pain.

I received a report from an umpire last week that a JV coach (NFHS Rules) presented a lineup at the plate meeting with an EP. When he was informed that HS rules do not allow for an EP, only the DP/FLEX, he (the coach) said that he never did understand that "DP/FLEX thing" and preferred to use the EP, and he had been doing it all season (about 10 games so far)!

While I have my doubts about the validity of his claim, it certainly would not surprise me if he had been allowed to use the EP previously.

So now a memo goes out to all of our HS umpires......
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Old Mon Apr 07, 2008, 10:21am
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Andy,

I've had similar conversations with coaches, but usually they want to use DH rather than DP/FLEX. I tell them they can, so long as they call their DH a "DP" and list their pitcher as FLEX in the 10 spot in the lineup. (Usually they want the "DH" to bat for the pitcher, as in baseball...)

When I explain they can use DP/FLEX exactly the same way as a DH (even though that is a limiting way to use it), they are happy.
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