2011 Tournament Discussion Redux

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

So untrue, its ridiculous. There is no regularity with a HALF court made shot and maybe one or two ~80 foot shot PER YEAR in all of basketball -- high school and college. Its extremely rare, especially in championship play. When it does happen, the shooter is almost always facing the basket and has both hands and arms available, unlike this situation where the player had only one.

Could that be because the Pitt player was hanging onto the other one?

[ODJ]

Both were fouls. Both needed to be called. John Adams said as much.

These are the moments for which we are paid.

I do believe next season, either one referee will stay on the floor to observe, or the teams will be directed to the bench area when the crew is looking at the monitor. JA was not happy seeing the talking on replay.

Btw, after the missed BU FT, with under a second: the 80' heave hit the rim.

[cmhjordan23]

Pitt could have avoided that foul if the coach had taken his players off the line after the 1st free throw. At worst it goes overtime. Just saying. I didn't really see the last play. Did he hack him across the arm?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by chymechowder

rule questions:

1. A1 throws in from his endline. B1 touches ball after it is released; ball deflects down onto the endline. official whistles, points at endline and whistles A1 for a throw in violation.

setting aside the fact that he missed B1 touching the ball, is that just an ncaa rule? that is, in Fed rules, is there anything wrong with inbounding the ball with a bounce pass that first hits a boundary line?

9-2-2: The ball shall be passed by the thrower directly into the court.......

[cmhjordan23]

@Texas Aggie, here is some video footage of why a foul should be called.
The worst foul in tournament history? Pitt’s error hands Butler win - The Dagger - NCAABBlog - Yahoo! Sports. Pause it on 26 seconds. If a foul is not called, Butler player might not secure rebound and Pitt throws up a prayer and goes in. That is why a foul should be called there.

[cmhjordan23]

This shot is clear and no doubt a foul.

[SNIPERBBB]

Surprised nobody has mentioned the officials names yet.

[rulesmaven]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

There was 1.4 seconds on the clock. Can you give me an example of any teams that have gone full court and scored in 1.3 or less?

The first call was correct. Player was forced into either a travel or OOB by contact. No choice but to call a foul. Second one should have been ignored. Even IF you can make a case for a foul in that situation, the score is tied with little chance of a score absent a call. Leave it alone, play 5 minutes more and then any call or no-call becomes moot.

Had one team been ahead, you can argue the foul. If there's a chance for OT, absent the prevention of a valid scoring attempt, go to OT. There's no advantage gained by grabbing an arm 90 feet from the basket with about a second left. No one here has yet made the case for such an advantage. Ordinarily, without an unfair advantage in a contact situation, we're going to leave it alone.

I was talking about the first foul, so we seem to agree on that.

On the second, I agree with you that there was very little chance for Butler to score and that it would have been unprecedented. Which is exactly why it was so dumb for the Pitt player to foul him so blatantly right in front of the official. Fouls are called all the time on the shooting team 94 feet from their defensive basket on free throw rebounding action. Under your definition of "advantage," which seems to be limited only to whether a player could score, there is never advantage on those plays either, but they walk to the other end to shoot in the bonus. I'm not seeing why it should be different.

It was a tie game. Pittsburgh kept its players in the lane on the free throw for a reason -- because there was enough time for them to try to win with a basket even if the free throw was missed. The player committed a foul in a situation where gaining possession might have given him the chance to win the game.

[just another ref]

"I'll see your stupid foul, and I'll raise you."


ESPN's Jay Bilas

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

Surprised nobody has mentioned the officials names yet.

ESPN article clip:

“We do it every day,’’ crew chief Frank Higgins said. “It just happened to be a crucial part of the game. You have to do what you have to do as an official.

“If we get it right, we’re good. If we get it wrong, we’re deadbeats and we’re all over 'SportsCenter.' We did what we think is correct.’’

The truth is, it was the two teams that made the mistakes.

After Smith’s would-be game-winning basket, Pittsburgh threw the ball in toward the sideline, right in front of the scorer’s table and Shelvin Mack went with Brown when he went for the ball.

The ball went out of bounds but before it did, official Terry Wymer raised his hand, signaling foul.

“I was so mad at myself,’’ Mack said. “I went to the huddle and my teammates were telling me to keep my head up, but I couldn’t believe it.’’

Until that point Mack hadn’t just been Butler’s hero, he’d been their superhero. He scored 30 points and absolutely dismantled Pittsburgh’s defense from the arc, where he hit 7-of-12 3-pointers.

When the foul was called, Brad Stevens looked as upset as the preternaturally calm coach has ever looked, throwing his arms and grimacing toward the officials.

But Butler long has been a program of no excuses. Yes, their budgets are smaller. Yes, the odds are against the. But no, they don’t really care. So while they may have been stunned that the officials sent Brown to the line with two seconds left, they weren’t complaining.

“I told Shelvin, there’s absolutely no way he can put himself in that position,’’ Nored said.

Added Stevens, “If he was impeding his progress to get the ball, then it’s a foul.’’

Brown went to the line and sunk the first free throw to tie it at 70. But then the 78 percent free-throw shooter missed the second.

In between shots, Dixon elected to keep his players under the basket, rather than pulling them back, a decision that seemed harmless at the time but later would prove fatal to his Panthers’ season.

“Everybody is going to question that, but I did what I thought we should have done,’’ Dixon said. “I wanted our shooter comfortable and I didn’t want to be pulling our guys off the line while he was going for his second shot.’’

As Brown’s missed freebie fell to the right side of the rim, Howard went up to get it. Nasir Robinson came up behind him and when the two landed, Antinio Petty raised his fist.
==================================
I'll note that John not Frank is the correct first name for Higgins and that on the foul by Butler both the Lead and the Trail had a whistle and were calling a foul.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

To shy from the call just because the score's tied and overtime is an option is just, well, Nevada would call it cowardly and I wouldn't disagree.

[Nevadaref]

There was a similar play with more severe contact to the head which makes a better textbook example in the Utah St./Kansas St. game with about 4 minutes left.

I thought the one in the UConn game was could go either way based upon the level of contact, but the NCAA made protecting airborne players a POE a couple of seasons ago and this is the type of play they were talking about.
The NCAA brass wants this called intentional.

[constable]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

There was 1.4 seconds on the clock. Can you give me an example of any teams that have gone full court and scored in 1.3 or less?

The first call was correct. Player was forced into either a travel or OOB by contact. No choice but to call a foul. Second one should have been ignored. Even IF you can make a case for a foul in that situation, the score is tied with little chance of a score absent a call. Leave it alone, play 5 minutes more and then any call or no-call becomes moot.

Had one team been ahead, you can argue the foul. If there's a chance for OT, absent the prevention of a valid scoring attempt, go to OT. There's no advantage gained by grabbing an arm 90 feet from the basket with about a second left. No one here has yet made the case for such an advantage. Ordinarily, without an unfair advantage in a contact situation, we're going to leave it alone.

Reading your post leads me to believe you're a Pitt fan.

The no-call doesn't become moot if Butler ends up losing in OT because you didn't do your job properly in regulation.

You have to call the foul. A foul is a foul is a foul. It doesn't matter it the clock says .003 or 19:59.

The officials cannot (read : should not) call or ignore fouls based on who is ahead.

No Advantaged gained? Last time I checked, grabbing ones arm might drastically effect their ability to grab a rebound. You cannot wait to see the result of contact at a such a crucial juncture in the game to see how "severe" the disadvantage was. Grabbing an arm of a rebounding player is obvious.

If there is contact that puts the offended player at a disadvantage, we need a whistle.

I agree with others on this board- you gotta have guts to call these types of fouls at anytime in the game, especially late in a tie game.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by chymechowder

In Fed, the contact has to be intentional right? Seems that there are times when a team A player tries to force a bounce pass into traffic. The ball strikes a team B player's foot and they call it a kick. Of course, I could be missing the intentional leg movement. but it seems there are times when it happens so fast that the team B player doesn't move his leg at all.

NFHS: Kicking the ball is intentionally striking it with any part of the leg or foot. An unintentionally kicked ball is never illegal, regardless of how far the ball goes and who recovers it.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

We don't run from correct calls.

Right. We don't. You do.