2011 Tournament Discussion Redux

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

There was 1.4 seconds on the clock. Can you give me an example of any teams that have gone full court and scored in 1.3 or less?

The first call was correct. Player was forced into either a travel or OOB by contact. No choice but to call a foul. Second one should have been ignored. Even IF you can make a case for a foul in that situation, the score is tied with little chance of a score absent a call. Leave it alone, play 5 minutes more and then any call or no-call becomes moot.

Had one team been ahead, you can argue the foul. If there's a chance for OT, absent the prevention of a valid scoring attempt, go to OT. There's no advantage gained by grabbing an arm 90 feet from the basket with about a second left. No one here has yet made the case for such an advantage. Ordinarily, without an unfair advantage in a contact situation, we're going to leave it alone.

Without seeing the play, this is the worst argument against a call I've ever read. Players make half-court shots to win regularly, and if he was prevented or slowed from doing that with illegal contact, then it should be a foul. The percentages of the shot don't matter, either.

To shy from the call just because the score's tied and overtime is an option is just, well, Nevada would call it cowardly and I wouldn't disagree.

[Texas Aggie]

Players make half-court shots to win regularly

So untrue, its ridiculous. There is no regularity with a HALF court made shot and maybe one or two ~80 foot shot PER YEAR in all of basketball -- high school and college. Its extremely rare, especially in championship play. When it does happen, the shooter is almost always facing the basket and has both hands and arms available, unlike this situation where the player had only one. I have called a 3/4 court shot attempt shooting foul before when the guy almost got tackled when trying a late shot. I'm well aware that such a foul can happen.

he was prevented or slowed

He wasn't. Watch the tape: he quickly realized there was going to be a foul called and he just heaved it. The foul called was a common foul, not a shooting foul, so even the official realized he wasn't in the act of shooting.

call it cowardly

You can name call all you want, but I stand by my point: there was no advantage gained and the call shouldn't have been made. If the NCAA director thinks there was, fine. We disagree. But I'm not going to support the call just because an official made it and it was supported by the brass. I've had missed calls supported publicly.

My point about OT was simply a "when in doubt" decision tree. It wasn't meant to justify not making a call that SHOULD be made. We don't run from correct calls. If you thought that's what I meant, you were mistaken. What I meant was, if you are in doubt -- and 90 feet from the basket, you should have at least a little doubt on an arm grab with less than a second when there is significant body contact in the lane that goes uncalled all game -- you can pass on the call, we go to OT, and we start all over.

I have made calls 90 feet from the basket before VERY late in the game. I wish I had some (1-2) back, but I stand by others (2-3). Had this been me, I would have wanted this one back.

The percentages of the shot don't matter

I agree. But this has nothing to do with my point.

Everyone that has argued with my post has still not made a good case for there being an advantage gained with the late arm grab. Do you call a shooting foul when a an out of control offensive player drives the lane, throws up a prayer, goes down mainly due to being out of control, but there was contact on the play? I don't. There are many other times we let contact go uncalled. Why must this arm grab be called? What advantage was gained?

RE: Duke/Kentucky: several problems with this comparison:

-- Duke had a timeout; neither team here did.
-- Duke was inbounding the ball with players in Duke's frontcourt; there was few or no Butler players in Butler's frontcourt.
-- Duke's clock started when touched inbounds AFTER the pass down court; Butler's clock started on the touch and would have run out with ball being passed.

Not saying it hasn't happened, but you will be hard pressed to find an example of a team winning from 90 feet with a running clock starting at 1.4 on the tip.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

So untrue, its ridiculous. There is no regularity with a HALF court made shot and maybe one or two ~80 foot shot PER YEAR in all of basketball -- high school and college. Its extremely rare, especially in championship play. When it does happen, the shooter is almost always facing the basket and has both hands and arms available, unlike this situation where the player had only one.

Could that be because the Pitt player was hanging onto the other one?

[ODJ]

Both were fouls. Both needed to be called. John Adams said as much.

These are the moments for which we are paid.

I do believe next season, either one referee will stay on the floor to observe, or the teams will be directed to the bench area when the crew is looking at the monitor. JA was not happy seeing the talking on replay.

Btw, after the missed BU FT, with under a second: the 80' heave hit the rim.

[cmhjordan23]

Pitt could have avoided that foul if the coach had taken his players off the line after the 1st free throw. At worst it goes overtime. Just saying. I didn't really see the last play. Did he hack him across the arm?

[cmhjordan23]

@Texas Aggie, here is some video footage of why a foul should be called.
The worst foul in tournament history? Pitt’s error hands Butler win - The Dagger - NCAABBlog - Yahoo! Sports. Pause it on 26 seconds. If a foul is not called, Butler player might not secure rebound and Pitt throws up a prayer and goes in. That is why a foul should be called there.

[cmhjordan23]

This shot is clear and no doubt a foul.

[SNIPERBBB]

Surprised nobody has mentioned the officials names yet.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

Surprised nobody has mentioned the officials names yet.

ESPN article clip:

“We do it every day,’’ crew chief Frank Higgins said. “It just happened to be a crucial part of the game. You have to do what you have to do as an official.

“If we get it right, we’re good. If we get it wrong, we’re deadbeats and we’re all over 'SportsCenter.' We did what we think is correct.’’

The truth is, it was the two teams that made the mistakes.

After Smith’s would-be game-winning basket, Pittsburgh threw the ball in toward the sideline, right in front of the scorer’s table and Shelvin Mack went with Brown when he went for the ball.

The ball went out of bounds but before it did, official Terry Wymer raised his hand, signaling foul.

“I was so mad at myself,’’ Mack said. “I went to the huddle and my teammates were telling me to keep my head up, but I couldn’t believe it.’’

Until that point Mack hadn’t just been Butler’s hero, he’d been their superhero. He scored 30 points and absolutely dismantled Pittsburgh’s defense from the arc, where he hit 7-of-12 3-pointers.

When the foul was called, Brad Stevens looked as upset as the preternaturally calm coach has ever looked, throwing his arms and grimacing toward the officials.

But Butler long has been a program of no excuses. Yes, their budgets are smaller. Yes, the odds are against the. But no, they don’t really care. So while they may have been stunned that the officials sent Brown to the line with two seconds left, they weren’t complaining.

“I told Shelvin, there’s absolutely no way he can put himself in that position,’’ Nored said.

Added Stevens, “If he was impeding his progress to get the ball, then it’s a foul.’’

Brown went to the line and sunk the first free throw to tie it at 70. But then the 78 percent free-throw shooter missed the second.

In between shots, Dixon elected to keep his players under the basket, rather than pulling them back, a decision that seemed harmless at the time but later would prove fatal to his Panthers’ season.

“Everybody is going to question that, but I did what I thought we should have done,’’ Dixon said. “I wanted our shooter comfortable and I didn’t want to be pulling our guys off the line while he was going for his second shot.’’

As Brown’s missed freebie fell to the right side of the rim, Howard went up to get it. Nasir Robinson came up behind him and when the two landed, Antinio Petty raised his fist.
==================================
I'll note that John not Frank is the correct first name for Higgins and that on the foul by Butler both the Lead and the Trail had a whistle and were calling a foul.

[Adam]

Okay, having seen the play, especially the backboard angle, great call.

1.4 is plenty of time to grab, turn and throw if you're not being held.

Dumbest. Foul. Ever.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

We don't run from correct calls.

Right. We don't. You do.

[Pantherdreams]

I'm ok with both calls. That being said I'm not sure what the call is on the 2nd one.

- Its clearly not a shooting foul as the official only gave him two.
- I'm not sure it can be a rebounding foul. Since he ends up with the ball and lands with strong position. If that much contact on a rebound the defensive team ends up with is foul then there is a foul on every rebound from jv boys basketball up.
- I assume it is because his arm is tangled making it difficult (impeding?) Howard from making a clean quick play. The fact is because of the time Howard is needing to make a quick turn or escape when in others he may just stand strong and keep his balance. If he's making a regular rebound and rip for the outlet that much contact may not disadvantage him/his team in this case though . . . I can only assume that the inadvertent holding at this point is the foul. Which if that is the case, is the right call.

Tough break for the Pitt kid who probably felt like there wasn't enough time for anything to happen beyond a tip.

[Jurassic Referee]

Interesting!

Checking out some sports pages this morning, the exact same talking heads that crapped all over Higgins et al for not officiating to the end in the St. Johns/Rutgers game are currently crapping over the guys in this game for officiating to the end.

Golly gee, why aren't I surprised?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

- I assume it is because his arm is tangled making it difficult (impeding?) Howard from making a clean quick play. The fact is because of the time Howard is needing to make a quick turn or escape when in others he may just stand strong and keep his balance. If he's making a regular rebound and rip for the outlet that much contact may not disadvantage him/his team in this case though . . . I can only assume that the inadvertent holding at this point is the foul. Which if that is the case, is the right call.
....

Nice euphemisms

The Pitt player intentionally grabbed Howard's arm the moment Howard grabbed the rebound. I think at that instance the Pitt player had a brain fart and thought his team was still down.

[fullor30]

all time NCAA buzzers beaters

Top 10 NCAA Final Four Buzzer Beaters of All Time


Jean......thanks for photos of your crew, looks like you folks work well together. That said, too much ball watching.