T-Worthy?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

JR you can quote POEs all day that does not mean that we all will use the same standard or examples as what produces a T. I know kids that call each other things that are inappropriate, but I would never consider those to be something that is an "automatic" T. The POE is created by people that do not have to live in an area and do not understand the cultural, social-economic and social expectations from different areas. I also do not recall in your POE it says the loudness matters. Or what about if a kid blows out their knee and they start cursing (I have seen this one personally), are we T'ing that too?

How about this, is "D@mn" not OK? Better yet, what about "God D@mn?" Is "Sh!t" not OK? Is one player of the same race calling another player on their team a "slur" not OK? Or does it say only "F" bombs are over the top?

I am not telling you to call what you feel or that you are wrong. I am just saying my standard is not the “F-word” and that is so bad but all other words are OK. That is why context to me and loudness does matter, but not the only factor. To me it has got to be louder than the bench hearing it too. Maybe people in the first three or four rows, but not just the bench IMO.

Jeff, I've talked to officials from sea to shining sea and they all pretty much say the following is fairly accurate in their area:

Automatic Techical Foul for Inappropriate Language(such as Fshots):
1) directed at an official or an opponent
2) loud enough to be heard in stands

Judgment Used:
1) not loud enough to be heard out of the immediate vicinity and not directed at an official or opponent.
2) extenuating circumstances like an injury.

And you want to know what is amazing to me...fwiw? I've had officials in your area agree with that also. So, I guess we'll just have have to differ on this one.

Does anybody else call it differently in their area that what I've said above?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If kids hurling f bombs at each other is ok, your social-economic system needs adjustment. We can't change the world, but we can control our little part of it. Call the T.

You work games for the same price you have for almost 20 years and you are questioning what I do in my little neck of the woods?

Irony!!!!

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Jeff, I've talked to officials from sea to shining sea and they all pretty much say the following is fairly accurate in their area:

Automatic Techical Foul for Inappropriate Language(such as Fshots):
1) directed at an official or an opponent
2) loud enough to be heard in stands

First of all I have never heard anyone but on this board talk about "automatic" Ts. To me that is like saying always or never. Not a term I hear any evaluator, supervisor, clinician or fellow officials that I work with use that term. I know as a clinician when I see something that happens, I might discuss how I think a situation might be handled, but I cannot recall using the term “automatic T” with any judgment action. And I actually am more likely to call a T in this situation, but what did the kid do before? Have I warned that player previously for anything? Is this early in the game? Have we passed on other similar language with the other team? Has my partners had to address other issues with this player. All of that matters and context is what matters to me.

And the OP did not say the comments could be heard in the stands or directed at an official, he said it was heard by the bench.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Judgment Used:
1) not loud enough to be heard out of the immediate vicinity and not directed at an official or opponent.
2) extenuating circumstances like an injury.

Also how loud you think it is based on a lot of things. I said I was in a gym last week where I could not hear a whistle. So this is why context matters to me. I probably want more than the bench to hear something like that to make that call only based on that word.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And you want to know what is amazing to me...fwiw? I've had officials in your area agree with that also. So, I guess we'll just have have to differ on this one.

You do realize that the people you might be referencing "in my area" may not work for the same people I do? And I know of not a single person here that works in the "areas" that I do either across the state. And if that is not the case, then you would have to tell me who they are. I think that must be noted.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Does anybody else call it differently in their area that what I've said above?

I do not know, you would have to ask them.

Peace

[Maineac]

Originally Posted by rfp

A1 is now in front of me at C position in front of the B bench. When he sees the shot miss, he drops the F-bomb loud enough for me and the B bench to hear. B coach wants a T. Waddya got?

Based on the OP info above, I'm going with the less popular answer of a quick talking to. No mention in the OP of anyone in the bleachers hearing it, etc. The same response I would give a team B player in a similar situation, btw.

[Adam]

For crying out loud, Rut. The OP was pretty straight forward. I'm normally with you on the "no-automatic" T's issue, but the OP was specific enough and straight forward enough. You're just reading too much into it in order to take an opposite opinion. It's your right, but good grief.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You work games for the same price you have for almost 20 years and you are questioning what I do in my little neck of the woods?

Irony!!!!

Peace

Certainly a relevant point. Nice job, Rut.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Maineac

Based on the OP info above, I'm going with the less popular answer of a quick talking to. No mention in the OP of anyone in the bleachers hearing it, etc. The same response I would give a team B player in a similar situation, btw.

Go for it, but I can tell you if the coach for B ran that complaint up the chain, I'd be working small school JV games (I won't tell you what gender) for a year. Loud enough for any opponent to hear is too loud, IMO.

And the "I'd do the same for you" response wouldn't fly here, either, as that coach would rightly expect a T to be called on one of his players for doing that.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

For crying out loud, Rut. The OP was pretty straight forward. I'm normally with you on the "no-automatic" T's issue, but the OP was specific enough and straight forward enough. You're just reading too much into it in order to take an opposite opinion. It's your right, but good grief.

Well I did not say it was not straight forward. But it did say only the bench heard it. I need a little more than that when giving a T if I hear language than the standard as to what the opposition bench heard. And if the coach protests, then I will tell them "Do you want me to call a T for every time their kid uses any form of foul language." I was just around someone recently where their teenager used some words on a regular basis that I would feel uncomfortable using as an adult now around certain people and family member.

No one has answered yet what is the "F" word so over the top but other words seem to get a pass? If the goal is not to allow kids to use any "foul language" then all words should be "automatic T."

I did not ask you to like the standard I hold for crying out loud.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Certainly a relevant point. Nice job, Rut.

If you are going to tell me what moral code I must hold, then be prepared for that same argument to be made. This is more of a moral issue than a rules issue. "Profanity" standards do not apply the same across the country or even Religious communities.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Well I did not say it was not straight forward.

Yeah, actually you did, when you said you needed more context. Perhaps you misspoke.

I doubt it, though.....

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Yeah, actually you did, when you said you needed more context. Perhaps you misspoke.

I doubt it, though.....

I did need more context to give a T, but that does not mean it was not straight forward. It said only the bench heard. That is not enough for me alone. And I also did not say I would not give a T at all, the context was other things will factor in matters to me.

I really do not know why you are trying to convince me what I should do? If you want to call a T, go right ahead and knock yourself out. I want to have more situational awareness before this is a call for me.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If you are going to tell me what moral code I must hold, then be prepared for that same argument to be made. This is more of a moral issue than a rules issue. "Profanity" standards do not apply the same across the country or even Religious communities.

Peace

This is not about a moral code. It is about acceptable public behavior. Do the kids in school use the f word in their conversations in the classroom in your area? I doubt it. And if you do consider it a moral issue, this triggers you to bring up financial issues. Makes sense.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

This is not about a moral code. It is about acceptable public behavior.

Acceptable public behavior changes based on the community you are in and a moral standard. It might not be a Religious one, but a moral standard.

Originally Posted by just another ref

Do the kids in school use the f word in their conversations in the classroom in your area? I doubt it.

You need to get out more often. You think every kid is put into detention when they use "foul" language in all school districts or levels?

Originally Posted by just another ref

And if you do consider it a moral issue, this triggers you to bring up financial issues. Makes sense.

You said:

Originally Posted by just another ref

We can't change the world, but we can control our little part of it.

And if you are worried about what standards I use, why did you use not my personal standards as to what games you worked in your area? I did not invoke in this thread what standards you should use. Actually I can live with whatever you do here. I simply am saying that I want more than "heard by the bench." And I do not believe in "automatic Ts." I think everything we can use our judgment is subjected to circumstances.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You do realize that the people you might be referencing "in my area" may not work for the same people I do?

You do realize that they also may work for the same people you do? You do realize also that they may be the people you work for?

And you know I won't name names on this web site ever.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Maineac

Based on the OP info above, I'm going with the less popular answer of a quick talking to. No mention in the OP of anyone in the bleachers hearing it, etc. The same response I would give a team B player in a similar situation, btw.

And if it's loud enough to be heard in the stands? Automatic "T" or judgment?