T-Worthy?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If it's that loud?

Sorry, but when they can hear it on the sidelines, it's pretty much automatic in every area that I've ever heard of. And I know you don't really believe in POE's either but the FED has been pretty explicit on how they want inappropriate laguage called. From just one of several POE's on it over the last few years:

The committee is concerned about the use of inappropriate language by players, bench personnel, coaches, officials and spectators. ....Players are not permitted to "let off steam" by using profanity, even if it is not directed at an opponent or official. Being angry at oneself is no excuse.

I can see using a little discretion if it's not that loud. But if it can be heard in the stands, it's an automatic "T" in high school ball just about everywhere afaik.

JR you can quote POEs all day that does not mean that we all will use the same standard or examples as what produces a T. I know kids that call each other things that are inappropriate, but I would never consider those to be something that is an "automatic" T. The POE is created by people that do not have to live in an area and do not understand the cultural, social-economic and social expectations from different areas. I also do not recall in your POE it says the loudness matters. Or what about if a kid blows out their knee and they start cursing (I have seen this one personally), are we T'ing that too?

How about this, is "D@mn" not OK? Better yet, what about "God D@mn?" Is "Sh!t" not OK? Is one player of the same race calling another player on their team a "slur" not OK? Or does it say only "F" bombs are over the top?

I am not telling you to call what you feel or that you are wrong. I am just saying my standard is not the “F-word” and that is so bad but all other words are OK. That is why context to me and loudness does matter, but not the only factor. To me it has got to be louder than the bench hearing it too. Maybe people in the first three or four rows, but not just the bench IMO.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I know kids that call each other things that are inappropriate, but I would never consider those to be something that is an "automatic" T. The POE is created by people that do not have to live in an area and do not understand the cultural, social-economic and social expectations from different areas.

If kids hurling f bombs at each other is ok, your social-economic system needs adjustment. We can't change the world, but we can control our little part of it. Call the T.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If kids hurling f bombs at each other is ok, your social-economic system needs adjustment. We can't change the world, but we can control our little part of it. Call the T.

You work games for the same price you have for almost 20 years and you are questioning what I do in my little neck of the woods?

Irony!!!!

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You work games for the same price you have for almost 20 years and you are questioning what I do in my little neck of the woods?

Irony!!!!

Peace

Certainly a relevant point. Nice job, Rut.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Certainly a relevant point. Nice job, Rut.

If you are going to tell me what moral code I must hold, then be prepared for that same argument to be made. This is more of a moral issue than a rules issue. "Profanity" standards do not apply the same across the country or even Religious communities.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If you are going to tell me what moral code I must hold, then be prepared for that same argument to be made. This is more of a moral issue than a rules issue. "Profanity" standards do not apply the same across the country or even Religious communities.

Peace

This is not about a moral code. It is about acceptable public behavior. Do the kids in school use the f word in their conversations in the classroom in your area? I doubt it. And if you do consider it a moral issue, this triggers you to bring up financial issues. Makes sense.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

This is not about a moral code. It is about acceptable public behavior.

Acceptable public behavior changes based on the community you are in and a moral standard. It might not be a Religious one, but a moral standard.

Originally Posted by just another ref

Do the kids in school use the f word in their conversations in the classroom in your area? I doubt it.

You need to get out more often. You think every kid is put into detention when they use "foul" language in all school districts or levels?

Originally Posted by just another ref

And if you do consider it a moral issue, this triggers you to bring up financial issues. Makes sense.

You said:

Originally Posted by just another ref

We can't change the world, but we can control our little part of it.

And if you are worried about what standards I use, why did you use not my personal standards as to what games you worked in your area? I did not invoke in this thread what standards you should use. Actually I can live with whatever you do here. I simply am saying that I want more than "heard by the bench." And I do not believe in "automatic Ts." I think everything we can use our judgment is subjected to circumstances.

Peace

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I have only read the first page of post and feel that I cannot wait to jump into the fray.

There is no context to examine in the OP. This is a no brainer and is definitely what the recent NFHS POE's have addressed.

Ladies and germs (I mean gentlemen) I have been on construction sites all of my adult life and even before that. I have heard every profane word that one can think of and:

a) If you have no hair, I can make you grow it;
b) If you have hair, I can make it fall out;
c) If your hair is straight, I can curl it; and
d) If you hair is curly, I can straighten it.

I think you get my drift. And the OP is a TF every time. There is no excuse not to charge A1 with a TF.

MTD, Sr.

[Tio]

I work in a conference where they tell us profanity = T. I work in other conferences which tell us to manage the situation as we see fit.

In a HS game, I would probably call a T.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

JR you can quote POEs all day that does not mean that we all will use the same standard or examples as what produces a T. I know kids that call each other things that are inappropriate, but I would never consider those to be something that is an "automatic" T. The POE is created by people that do not have to live in an area and do not understand the cultural, social-economic and social expectations from different areas. I also do not recall in your POE it says the loudness matters. Or what about if a kid blows out their knee and they start cursing (I have seen this one personally), are we T'ing that too?

How about this, is "D@mn" not OK? Better yet, what about "God D@mn?" Is "Sh!t" not OK? Is one player of the same race calling another player on their team a "slur" not OK? Or does it say only "F" bombs are over the top?

I am not telling you to call what you feel or that you are wrong. I am just saying my standard is not the “F-word” and that is so bad but all other words are OK. That is why context to me and loudness does matter, but not the only factor. To me it has got to be louder than the bench hearing it too. Maybe people in the first three or four rows, but not just the bench IMO.

Jeff, I've talked to officials from sea to shining sea and they all pretty much say the following is fairly accurate in their area:

Automatic Techical Foul for Inappropriate Language(such as Fshots):
1) directed at an official or an opponent
2) loud enough to be heard in stands

Judgment Used:
1) not loud enough to be heard out of the immediate vicinity and not directed at an official or opponent.
2) extenuating circumstances like an injury.

And you want to know what is amazing to me...fwiw? I've had officials in your area agree with that also. So, I guess we'll just have have to differ on this one.

Does anybody else call it differently in their area that what I've said above?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Jeff, I've talked to officials from sea to shining sea and they all pretty much say the following is fairly accurate in their area:

Automatic Techical Foul for Inappropriate Language(such as Fshots):
1) directed at an official or an opponent
2) loud enough to be heard in stands

First of all I have never heard anyone but on this board talk about "automatic" Ts. To me that is like saying always or never. Not a term I hear any evaluator, supervisor, clinician or fellow officials that I work with use that term. I know as a clinician when I see something that happens, I might discuss how I think a situation might be handled, but I cannot recall using the term “automatic T” with any judgment action. And I actually am more likely to call a T in this situation, but what did the kid do before? Have I warned that player previously for anything? Is this early in the game? Have we passed on other similar language with the other team? Has my partners had to address other issues with this player. All of that matters and context is what matters to me.

And the OP did not say the comments could be heard in the stands or directed at an official, he said it was heard by the bench.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Judgment Used:
1) not loud enough to be heard out of the immediate vicinity and not directed at an official or opponent.
2) extenuating circumstances like an injury.

Also how loud you think it is based on a lot of things. I said I was in a gym last week where I could not hear a whistle. So this is why context matters to me. I probably want more than the bench to hear something like that to make that call only based on that word.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And you want to know what is amazing to me...fwiw? I've had officials in your area agree with that also. So, I guess we'll just have have to differ on this one.

You do realize that the people you might be referencing "in my area" may not work for the same people I do? And I know of not a single person here that works in the "areas" that I do either across the state. And if that is not the case, then you would have to tell me who they are. I think that must be noted.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Does anybody else call it differently in their area that what I've said above?

I do not know, you would have to ask them.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You do realize that the people you might be referencing "in my area" may not work for the same people I do?

You do realize that they also may work for the same people you do? You do realize also that they may be the people you work for?

And you know I won't name names on this web site ever.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You do realize that they also may work for the same people you do? You do realize also that they may be the people you work for?

Do you think I would likely know who those you are talking about? There are only so many people here from my area that you could be talking about.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And you know I won't name names on this web site ever.

I give you more credit than that or really did not expect you to give a name. But I think I am aware of who works for whom and why they work for them as it relates to this area. It is not like it is a secret. And if some of those worked where I did and had no place stay that is not a hotel, they would be crazy.

Peace