T-worthy?

[ChuckElias]

Just looking for opinions.

Boys Varsity game. A1 dribbling along baseline, B1 reaches for ball, hits A1 on the wrist, ball goes OOB. Could probably call a foul on B1, but instead I simply award the ball OOB to A. Team A inbounds and scores. As B1 is dribbling from backcourt to frontcourt (I'm trail, opposite table), Coach B is standing at the table and yells to me "You missed that one, ref!" He wasn't angry or accusing. Just matter of fact.

I banged him.

What do you think, honestly? He'd been chirping for most of the game. But 1) at the table, 2) yelling across the court, 3) everybody could hear. I didn't feel I could ignore it. Was I too thin-skinned?

Not that it matters for this particular situation, but this is the same game in which I later DQ'd a player for punching an opponent.

Chuck

[Bart Tyson]

yelling across court. good call. If you were standing next to him and it was between you and him i would pass.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Your first mistake was not calling a common foul on B1. Your second mistake was charging a Head Coach A with a technical foul because you deliberately not called a foul on B1 when he committed a foul.

Remember the definition of incidental contact in both NFHS and NCAA. B1's contact was not incidental. The fact that you gave the ball back to Team A is no justification for not calling the foul on B1. Call the foul and you would not had Coach A chirp at you. Why call a technical on him when by your own admission he was angry or accusing (just out of the coaching box), which is a legitimate technical in and of itself.

[Bart Tyson]

OK mark, so you think if the coach is correct and you miss a call ( I don't know any coaches who can read a mind for intentionly not calling a foul) then its OK to yell across the court. Not everyone agrees with you about being a rule book official.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
The fact that you gave the ball back to Team A is no justification for not calling the foul on B1. Call the foul and you would not had Coach A chirp at you.

Just to be clear, Mark, the chirper was Coach B! The only mistake was that he didn't realize that I had just done him a favor. Instead, he wanted me to rule that the ball had deflected off the dribbler.

And, in my own humble opinion, I think that the fact that I gave the ball back to Team A is, in fact, a very good justification for not calling the foul on B1. The result of the play is exactly the same, except no foul is charged and my partner and I don't switch.

Notice that A1 is NOT put at a disadvantage in this situation. Either (a) A gets the ball and B is charged with a foul (but no 1-and-1), or (b) A gets the ball.

Seems to me, in this situation, you keep the game moving.

Chuck

[devdog69]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Your first mistake was not calling a common foul on B1. Your second mistake was charging a Head Coach A with a technical foul because you deliberately not called a foul on B1 when he committed a foul.

Remember the definition of incidental contact in both NFHS and NCAA. B1's contact was not incidental. The fact that you gave the ball back to Team A is no justification for not calling the foul on B1. Call the foul and you would not had Coach A chirp at you. Why call a technical on him when by your own admission he was angry or accusing (just out of the coaching box), which is a legitimate technical in and of itself.

Mark, with all due respect: PLEASE!!

Your first mistake was not reading the post. He banged coach B, not A. From there it gets worse. B1's contact, though none of us saw it for ourselves, sounds incidental to me. He hit A on the wrist which was in contact with the ball and the hand is part of the ball. If a player blocks a shot cleanly and contacts the shooters fingers do you call that a foul? I hope not. Your sentence "Why call a technical on him when by your own admission he was angry or accusing (just out of the coaching box), which is a legitimate technical in and of itself." is a massacre of English grammar and makes no sense.

Chuck, to me it sounds a little quick on the trigger, but none of us know the events leading up to this point. However, if he was at the table when he says this, he is out of his coaching box and this would warrant a technical. I usually try to warn them before giving this one.

[ChuckElias]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by devdog69

Chuck, to me it sounds a little quick on the trigger,

Yeah, Dev, I thought so too, afterward. In my defense, the guy is just a complete idiot. No idea whatsoever about what's going on in the game. But I think you're right. I should have tried to talk him down, I think.

Chuck

[devdog69]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ChuckElias

Originally posted by devdog69

Yeah, Dev, I thought so too, afterward. In my defense, the guy is just a complete idiot. No idea whatsoever about what's going on in the game. But I think you're right. I should have tried to talk him down, I think.

Chuck

I have to admit, I pulled the trigger too quick earlier in the year on a JV coach. (FS JV boys, Bruce) Very close game with 15 seconds left, I am trail. his team got two point blank shots at the hole and missed them both, team B gets the rebound and his team fouls to stop the clock, down by 2 with 7 seconds left double bonus. My partner called the foul, this coach takes about two steps on the court and says to me "we've been getting hammered down there all night, that's unbelievable". Tweet, whack. He acted like he expected it and deserved it but I definitely regretted it. The other coach had been vocal the entire game, but this was the first time I remembered hearing this coach's voice, guess it scared me.

[Bart Tyson]

I must be missing something, " He'd been chirping for most of the game. But 1) at the table, 2) yelling across the court, 3) everybody could hear. I didn't feel I could ignore it." If this isn't a classic T, then i guess i need a definition of a classic T.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

First: I apologize for missreading (afterall as a basketball official I am blind in one eye and cannot see out of the other) Coach B instead of Coach A, but he was out of the coaching box, which is a technical foul, so Chuck gets a pass on the technical foul.

Second to devdog69: Read NFHS R4-S24-A1 and NCAA R4-S34-A2a,b, & c. These are the definitions concerning the legal and illegal use of hands and arms. The hand is part of the ball when it is in contact with the ball. The wrist is not part of the hand (see Webster's). When B1 made contact with A1's wrist even when the hand was in contact with the ball, B1 was guilty of a foul. Contact B1 with A1's hand that was in contact with the ball would not be a foul.

Third to Chuck: B1 fouled A1 causing the ball to go out-of-bounds off A1. You cannot justify giving the ball to Team A for a throw-in. You stated that Team A was not in the bonus and therefore would have just gotten the ball for a throw-in anyway (B1 was not charged with a foul when he should have been, that sounds like a big advantage given to Team B and B1 later on in the game), plus you and your partner did not have to switch. B1 was not charged with a foul when he should have been; the ball went off A1 and instead of giving the ball to Team B for a throw-in you gave the ball back to Team A. Coach B had a right to be upset with you giving the ball to Team A. Those are not valid reasons for not calling the foul on B1, they are excuses for not doing the job correctly. If you had called the foul on B1 you would have had to switch and be table side in front of Coach B. Sounds to me that you were not diligent in doing your job, you were lazy, and you did not want to take the heat from Coach B. And now you want validation for your technical foul on Coach B.

[devdog69]

I must be missing something, " He'd been chirping for most of the game. But 1) at the table, 2)
yelling across the court, 3) everybody could hear. I didn't feel I could ignore it." If this isn't a
classic T, then i guess i need a definition of a classic T.
__________________



I'm just saying that "you missed that one, ref" does not always warrant a T in my book. If this happened at the first of the game with no previous interaction from/with the coach, I would probably let it go and try to talk to him quickly about staying in his box. I must miss more than everybody else, because I hear these sorts of comments all the time and don't think anything about them, it's all in the context and the circumstances of the situation.

[Edited by devdog69 on Feb 14th, 2002 at 11:55 AM]

[Bart Tyson]

Oh no, I agree, this doesn't always mean give a T if a coach yells this to you. I'm just saying in this situation, it did bring the attention of the official to give a T. Everyone has a breaking point, for this game, for this official, for this situation, the T is justified. Now i can think of situations where everything is the same and the officials does not give a T and i can live with it. By classic i mean, when an official has had enough and gives the T when i is justified.

[egausch]

Not only did you give B a break by the no call, but the throw in also gives B an advantage. The team that has to throw in, is at a disadvantage, numbers wise. I agree the foul should have been called. Would the call have seemed correct if the inbound pass was intercepted by B?
Sounds like Coach B was losing!? Can't see any other reason to mouth off. Whack as you see fit! IMHO
EG

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by egausch
Not only did you give B a break by the no call, but the throw in also gives B an advantage. Would the call have seemed correct if the inbound pass was intercepted by B?

The throw-in gives B no advantage, b/c Team A would've had a throw-in at the exact same spot regardless of whether I called a foul or OOB violation. So yes, the call would still have seemed correct if the inbound pass had been picked off.

Chuck

[RookieDude]

I can see what Chuck is saying about the no call on the foul...and I can see what Mark T. is saying about causing further rough play.

I wonder if A1 thought it was a good no call when he got whacked on the wrist? Will he retaliate later and then be upset when the foul is called on him?

Another foul we let go as officials is the "over the back",or push from behind on a rebound, and the ball goes off the player that was fouled. We usually give the ball to the player that was fouled even though the ball probably touched him before going OOB...why is that?

BTW, I have done it myself this year a few times.

RD