Double Foul During AP Throw-In

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Which is why you don't go back and ask the coach what was happening when the whistle blew.

Good advice. On many levels.

[Jurassic Referee]

NFHS rules 4-36-1 and 4-36-2(b) covers it in case anybody gives a sh!t.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Thanks. Just checking to see if RefMag had it right. They didn't.

I wonder if anyone over there ever edits their articles. That wasn't really a toughy.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I wonder if anyone over there ever edits their articles. That wasn't really a toughy.

How badly did they slice this one?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I wonder if anyone over there ever edits their articles. That wasn't really a toughy.

Someone could turn their screw ups into a job opportunity.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Play: A1 is holding the ball out of bounds for and alternating-possession throw-in. Prior to A1 releasing the ball, A4 and B5 are called for a double foul. How is play resumed? How is the alternating-possession arrow affected?

The point of interruption is the throw-in.

Just one of the many reasons I dropped Referee.

[Scrapper1]

Ok, let me throw this out there. Why is the POI an alternating possession throw-in? The POI rule says that if the interruption occurs during a throw-in, you resume with a throw-in for that team. Nothing in that rule specifies that the throw-in remains an AP throw-in. You simply get the ball for a throw-in due to the penalty of the fouls.

This would be similar to having a kicked ball during an AP throw-in. The resulting throw-in is due to the violation, therefore it's not an AP throw-in.

A single foul during an AP throw-in doesn't cause the arrow to change. A defensive violation during an AP throw-in doesn't cause the arrow to change. So why just assume that a double foul does cause the arrow to change?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Ok, let me throw this out there. Why is the POI an alternating possession throw-in? The POI rule says that if the interruption occurs during a throw-in, you resume with a throw-in for that team. Nothing in that rule specifies that the throw-in remains an AP throw-in. You simply get the ball for a throw-in due to the penalty of the fouls.

This would be similar to having a kicked ball during an AP throw-in. The resulting throw-in is due to the violation, therefore it's not an AP throw-in.

A single foul during an AP throw-in doesn't cause the arrow to change. A defensive violation during an AP throw-in doesn't cause the arrow to change. So why just assume that a double foul does cause the arrow to change?

The double foul doesn't cause the arrow to change. The completed AP throw-in after the foul causes the arrow to change.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Ok, let me throw this out there. Why is the POI an alternating possession throw-in? The POI rule says that if the interruption occurs during a throw-in, you resume with a throw-in for that team. Nothing in that rule specifies that the throw-in remains an AP throw-in. You simply get the ball for a throw-in due to the penalty of the fouls.

This would be similar to having a kicked ball during an AP throw-in. The resulting throw-in is due to the violation, therefore it's not an AP throw-in.

A single foul during an AP throw-in doesn't cause the arrow to change. A defensive violation during an AP throw-in doesn't cause the arrow to change. So why just assume that a double foul does cause the arrow to change?

The arrow does NOT change until AFTER a successful throw-in following the POI, unless throw-in team violates. I don't think anyone has suggested that it DOES. Although I could be confused I know that I didn't make any such claim. The new throw-in is the same as the one that was not completed due to the DF--an AP throw-in.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

The arrow does NOT change until AFTER a successful throw-in following the POI, unless throw-in team violates. I don't think anyone has suggested that it DOES. Although I could be confused I know that I didn't make any such claim. The new throw-in is the same as the one that was not completed due to the DF--an AP throw-in.

Agreed. It's not the same as a kicked ball violation by B.

[reffish]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Ok, let me throw this out there. Why is the POI an alternating possession throw-in? The POI rule says that if the interruption occurs during a throw-in, you resume with a throw-in for that team. Nothing in that rule specifies that the throw-in remains an AP throw-in. You simply get the ball for a throw-in due to the penalty of the fouls.

This would be similar to having a kicked ball during an AP throw-in. The resulting throw-in is due to the violation, therefore it's not an AP throw-in.

A single foul during an AP throw-in doesn't cause the arrow to change. A defensive violation during an AP throw-in doesn't cause the arrow to change. So why just assume that a double foul does cause the arrow to change?

There are two separate throw-ins happening in the OP. The first throw-in is for the AP throw-in. The arrow does not move because there is a foul by either team. In this case, by both teams; a double foul. The resumption of play for a double foul is POI. Because there is no team control during a throw-in, the AP arrow is used as the POI. This AP throw-in is for the double foul, not for the original AP throw-in. Hope this helps.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by reffish

There are two separate throw-ins happening in the OP. The first throw-in is for the AP throw-in. The arrow does not move because there is a foul by either team. In this case, by both teams; a double foul. The resumption of play for a double foul is POI. Because there is no team control during a throw-in, the AP arrow is used as the POI. This AP throw-in is for the double foul, not for the original AP throw-in. Hope this helps.

It helps, but it's wrong.

Would you go to an AP throw-in if the DF was called during a throw-in following a violation?

You really need to read the definition of POI in the book.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by reffish

There are two separate throw-ins happening in the OP. The first throw-in is for the AP throw-in. The arrow does not move because there is a foul by either team. In this case, by both teams; a double foul. The resumption of play for a double foul is POI. Because there is no team control during a throw-in, the AP arrow is used as the POI. This AP throw-in is for the double foul, not for the original AP throw-in. Hope this helps.

POI during a throw-in is the throw-in. The lack of team control does not affect the status of the subsequent throw-in. The administration of this play is the same in NCAA, which has TC during a throw-in, as it is in NFHS, which does not have TC during a throw-in.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Ok, let me throw this out there. Why is the POI an alternating possession throw-in? The POI rule says that if the interruption occurs during a throw-in, you resume with a throw-in for that team. Nothing in that rule specifies that the throw-in remains an AP throw-in. You simply get the ball for a throw-in due to the penalty of the fouls.

This would be similar to having a kicked ball during an AP throw-in. The resulting throw-in is due to the violation, therefore it's not an AP throw-in.

A single foul during an AP throw-in doesn't cause the arrow to change. A defensive violation during an AP throw-in doesn't cause the arrow to change. So why just assume that a double foul does cause the arrow to change?

The rule is that the arrow changes when the throw-in is complete, correct?
If a DF is called prior to the completion of the throw-in, it was never completed. I can't imagine the rules committee wants this play to result in A getting a new throw-in and keep the arrow. They have made it clear that an AP TI is considered to be slightly different than a normal TI, so it seems logical to me to assume they would want us to return to the AP TI if a DF is called during that TI.

The only alternative is to assume the AP TI get ignored, and you return to the TI for A with the arrow not changing from A.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

POI during a throw-in is the throw-in. The lack of team control does not affect the status of the subsequent throw-in. The administration of this play is the same in NCAA, which has TC during a throw-in, as it is in NFHS, which does not have TC during a throw-in.

Yep.

4-36-2b
Play shall be resumed by one of the following methods:
b. A free throw or a throw-in when the interruption occurred during this activity or if a team is entitled to such.