What's The Correct Call ???

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

There's part of the problem with your understanding of plays like this. Player control does not equal a violation. All player control means is that the traveling and dribbling rules now apply. What the player does after gaining player control dictates what we have to call. If the player travels or commits an illegal second dribble after gaining player control, we call the violation. And if the player makes a legal timeout request, well we grant that timeout request. That's all I'm trying to tell you.

Thanks for your patience. Among other things, I failed to mention in my original post that the player in question moved his pivot foot several times while playing the pinball version of keep away with the ball rolling on the floor.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Among other things, I failed to mention in my original post that the player in question moved his pivot foot several times while playing the pinball version of keep away with the ball rolling on the floor.

There is only a pivot foot applicable by rule when a player is actually holding the ball. Rule 4-44 as previously cited. Have you read case book play 4.15COMMENT?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bainsey

That's the basis why I'm leaning toward travelling in Billy's sitch.

If you hold the ball, intentionally throw it, move to another spot on the floor, and hold it again, it's a travel.

If you hold the ball, fumble it, then intentionally move it on the floor to a new spot, then hold it again, shouldn't it still be a travel?

While you certainly cannot penalize the fumble, I see just cause in the intentional movement. What difference does it make whether you intentionally move the ball from one spot to the other -- resulting in control on both ends -- via the air or the floor?

Here's the problem, though. Billy's player never gained control after the fumble. I think you could justify an illegal dribble in my alternate play, but I have to say I'm having a hard time justifying any call in Billy's play.

[billyu2]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

A1 dribbles, comes to a stop, and intentionally, and deliberately, ends his dribble. He then proceeds to fumble the ball, which drops to the floor. A1 tries to pick up the fumbled ball, but in his haste he ends up just pushing it and the ball rolls across the floor for a distance of about a foot. Now A1 realizes that two defenders are close enough to him to attempt to pick up the fumbled ball off the floor, so he, in my opinion, intentionally, and deliberately pushes the ball to roll it a few feet away from one defender, and then, again in my opinion, intentionally, and deliberately, pushes the ball again to roll it a few feet away from the second defender. At this point, before he picks it up, I figure that the statute of limitations has run out on the "can always pick up a fumble rule", so I blow my whistle, and call a travel. Later, during a timeout, I discuss this with my partner and she believes that this should have been an illegal dribble.

I know that this play has got to be illegal, just not sure why? Help.

Here's another thought for what it's worth. Why not a double dribble? 4-15-1 says, "A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times." The rule doesn't say the ball has to bounce or continue to bounce. Does this seem a more likely fit than a travel? The player completed a dribble, fumbled, then (while in control) batted or pushed the ball to the floor again.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by billyu2

Here's another thought for what it's worth. Why not a double dribble? 4-15-1 says, "A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times." The rule doesn't say the ball has to bounce or continue to bounce. Does this seem a more likely fit than a travel? The player completed a dribble, fumbled, then (while in control) batted or pushed the ball to the floor again.

No, he didn't. After the fumble, he never did anything that constitutes control. He certainly never "batted it to the floor," as it was already on the floor. A "controlled" tap does not equal player control, no matter how controlled it is.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

4.15 COMMENT?

4.15 COMMENT: It is not possible for a player to travel during a dribble. A player is not dribbling while slapping the ball during a jump, when a pass rebounds from his/her hand, when he/she fumbles, or when he/she bats a rebound or pass away from other players who are attempting to get it. The player is not in control under these conditions. It is a dribble when a player stands still and bounces the ball. It is not a dribble when a player stands still and holds the ball and touches it to the floor once or more than once.

As my gut feeling told me, I was wrong. Great citation. Right now my cat is licking the egg from all over my face. Where were you several hours ago? I would have also been wrong to grant a timeout during said play. Two wrongs don't make a right here, they just make it really, really wrong. I'll email the citation to my partner. She thought it was an illegal dribble.

[billyu2]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

No, he didn't. After the fumble, he never did anything that constitutes control. He certainly never "batted it to the floor," as it was already on the floor. A "controlled" tap does not equal player control, no matter how controlled it is.

Disagree. BillyMac said the player deliberately and intentionally pushed the ball away from the defender. What if the fumbled ball was bouncing and A1 deliberately tapped or pushed the ball away from the defender once or more than once so the defender couldn't get it? Would you not have a double dribble?

[Adam]

Let me change it slightly, Billy.

A1 has the ball, already having used his dribble. He's being trapped by B1 and B2 in the BC. He reaches down, touching the ball to the floor, and rolls it between B1's legs towards the division line. He then runs around the defenders before the realize what happened (they though they had him trapped) and retrieves the rolling ball before passing to an open teammate.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by billyu2

Disagree. BillyMac said the player deliberately and intentionally pushed the ball away from the defender. What if the fumbled ball was bouncing and A1 deliberately tapped or pushed the ball away from the defender once or more than once so the defender couldn't get it? Would you not have a double dribble?

No. Tapping or pushing the ball do not consitute control unless they're part of a dribble. Pushing a bouncing ball, likewise, does not constitute control unless it's part of a controlled dribble.

How to judge this? If the player is able to bat/push the ball between consecutive bounces, I'd call it control. If it bounces more than once between dribbles *, I'm more likely to judge it a continued fumble.

* a rule of thumb with no known rules backing or contradiction.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Now bainsey thinks it's traveling to retrieve a fumble.

Wrong. That's not what I said.

And JR, of course you wouldn't whistle a travel until the ball is held, just as you wouldn't whistle it until you hold it after throwing it from a different place on the floor. Again, whether the ball moves through the air or on the floor, what does it matter?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Wrong. That's not what I said.

And JR, of course you wouldn't whistle a travel until the ball is held, just as you wouldn't whistle it until you hold it after throwing it from a different place on the floor. Again, whether the ball moves through the air or on the floor, what does it matter?

It doesn't, but the ball is never thrown in Billy's play.

[billyu2]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

No. Tapping or pushing the ball do not consitute control unless they're part of a dribble. Pushing a bouncing ball, likewise, does not constitute control unless it's part of a controlled dribble.

How to judge this? If the player is able to bat/push the ball between consecutive bounces, I'd call it control. If it bounces more than once between dribbles *, I'm more likely to judge it a continued fumble.

* a rule of thumb with no known rules backing or contradiction.

I understand what you are saying. But in the context of a dribble/fumble situation we know that if a player ends a dribble then fumbles he may recover (catch) the ball but could not track down the fumble and then resume dribbling. Keep in mind in BillyMacs situation the player tapped the ball more than once consecutively all within a few feet. In my mind I'm seeing that as control. I guess this is a htbt situation. Your turn.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by billyu2

I understand what you are saying. But in the context of a dribble/fumble situation we know that if a player ends a dribble then fumbles he may recover (catch) the ball but could not track down the fumble and then resume dribbling. Keep in mind in BillyMacs situation the player tapped the ball more than once consecutively all within a few feet. In my mind I'm seeing that as control. I guess this is a htbt situation. Your turn.

He's either holding it or he's not. We both agree he's not.

He's either dribbling, or he's not. Let's change to say the ball is bouncing. If A1, in the course of chasing the fumble, bats the ball away from the defenders and has to continue chasing it himself, he's not dribbling. He's merely knocking the ball away from someone else. Even if he had been dribbling before, this would now be an interrupted dribble (which by definition does not include player control).

Swing away.

[billyu2]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

He's either holding it or he's not. We both agree he's not.

He's either dribbling, or he's not. Let's change to say the ball is bouncing. If A1, in the course of chasing the fumble, bats the ball away from the defenders and has to continue chasing it himself, he's not dribbling. He's merely knocking the ball away from someone else. Even if he had been dribbling before, this would now be an interrupted dribble (which by definition does not include player control).

Swing away.

Okay! Again, let's stay within BillyMac's description of the play. TWO defenders close enough to pick up the ball. From there let's go with your change that the ball is bouncing. A1 taps the ball away from the first defender and then again from the second defender all within a few feet. Is
A1 in control of the ball? Just from the description I'm thinking, yes. I agree with you if A1 bats the ball well away from the first defender just so he can't get the ball and the chase continues across the court with A1 again batting the ball away from the second defender then I agree he's merely knocking the ball away from someone else. Make sense or did I whiff?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by billyu2

Okay! Again, let's stay within BillyMac's description of the play. TWO defenders close enough to pick up the ball. From there let's go with your change that the ball is bouncing. A1 taps the ball away from the first defender and then again from the second defender all within a few feet. Is
A1 in control of the ball? Just from the description I'm thinking, yes. I agree with you if A1 bats the ball well away from the first defender just so he can't get the ball and the chase continues across the court with A1 again batting the ball away from the second defender then I agree he's merely knocking the ball away from someone else. Make sense or did I whiff?

Within a few feet is not significant. A player can bat the ball back and forth between his own legs and not be in control. Judgment call.