What's The Correct Call ???

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

There's part of the problem with your understanding of plays like this. Player control does not equal a violation. All player control means is that the traveling and dribbling rules now apply. What the player does after gaining player control dictates what we have to call. If the player travels or commits an illegal second dribble after gaining player control, we call the violation. And if the player makes a legal timeout request, well we grant that timeout request. That's all I'm trying to tell you.

Thanks for your patience. Among other things, I failed to mention in my original post that the player in question moved his pivot foot several times while playing the pinball version of keep away with the ball rolling on the floor.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Among other things, I failed to mention in my original post that the player in question moved his pivot foot several times while playing the pinball version of keep away with the ball rolling on the floor.

There is only a pivot foot applicable by rule when a player is actually holding the ball. Rule 4-44 as previously cited. Have you read case book play 4.15COMMENT?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

4.15 COMMENT?

4.15 COMMENT: It is not possible for a player to travel during a dribble. A player is not dribbling while slapping the ball during a jump, when a pass rebounds from his/her hand, when he/she fumbles, or when he/she bats a rebound or pass away from other players who are attempting to get it. The player is not in control under these conditions. It is a dribble when a player stands still and bounces the ball. It is not a dribble when a player stands still and holds the ball and touches it to the floor once or more than once.

As my gut feeling told me, I was wrong. Great citation. Right now my cat is licking the egg from all over my face. Where were you several hours ago? I would have also been wrong to grant a timeout during said play. Two wrongs don't make a right here, they just make it really, really wrong. I'll email the citation to my partner. She thought it was an illegal dribble.

[Adam]

Let me change it slightly, Billy.

A1 has the ball, already having used his dribble. He's being trapped by B1 and B2 in the BC. He reaches down, touching the ball to the floor, and rolls it between B1's legs towards the division line. He then runs around the defenders before the realize what happened (they though they had him trapped) and retrieves the rolling ball before passing to an open teammate.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Let me change it slightly, Billy.

A1 has the ball, already having used his dribble. He's being trapped by B1 and B2 in the BC. He reaches down, touching the ball to the floor, and rolls it between B1's legs towards the division line. He then runs around the defenders before the realize what happened (they though they had him trapped) and retrieves the rolling ball before passing to an open teammate.

Snaq, are you saying this would be a legal play?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

Snaq, are you saying this would be a legal play?

I wouldn't. Even if the rules do not expressly prohibit it, it is an advantage not intended by the rules.

We have at least a few case plays that establish that when a player who is holding the ball deliberately releases the ball such that it is not a dribble, a try, or a pass, they are effectively considered to have been holding the ball the entire time as far as the traveling rules are concerned when they again pick up the ball.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

Snaq, are you saying this would be a legal play?

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I wouldn't. Even if the rules do not expressly prohibit it, it is an advantage not intended by the rules.

We have at least a few case plays that establish that when a player who is holding the ball deliberately releases the ball such that it is not a dribble, a try, or a pass, they are effectively considered to have been holding the ball the entire time as far as the traveling rules are concerned when they again pick up the ball.

Exactly. The only differences between this and the "sets the ball down" play are that the ball rolls (and who's to say it isn't rolling slightly in the book play) and we're talking pivot foot restrictions rather than getting up.

The difference between my play and Billy's play is that Billy's player loses control and fumbles. If a player lying on the floor fumbles it, he can then get up and retrieve it.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I wouldn't. Even if the rules do not expressly prohibit it, it is an advantage not intended by the rules.

We have at least a few case plays that establish that when a player who is holding the ball deliberately releases the ball such that it is not a dribble, a try, or a pass, they are effectively considered to have been holding the ball the entire time as far as the traveling rules are concerned when they again pick up the ball.

Even if the rules specifically state that you can't travel unless you're actually holding the ball, you'd still call traveling because you think it's an unfair advantage.

Got it.

And good luck with that philosophy. You're gonna need it.