What's The Correct Call ???

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

But don't rule that the ball came to rest just because the play happens to offend your idea of how the game should be played.

Your 100% correct. I did exactly that yesterday in the heat of of the game. I remember thinking to myself before I sounded my whistle, "That can't be legal", instead of the much more correct, "That's illegal". That's why I discussed it with my partner, and brought it to the attention of the esteemed members of the Forum. It was probably a lousy call, and now I want to see if it really was illegal, not to defend my call, but to learn something regarding such plays (rebound tap, muff pass, roll ball) that may occur in the future.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If you legitimately feel that the ball came to rest during an 84-foot tap/bobble/fumble/muff/etc., then apply the applicable rules at that point of the play.

I can't imagine any Forum member allowing these plays to go on longer than several feet without sounding their whistle. Can you?

[APG]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I can't imagine any Forum member allowing these plays to go on longer than several feet without sounding their whistle. Can you?

Why not? If the defense allows an offensive player to go the length of the court and do that, then that's on them. Nothing illegal.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I can't imagine any Forum member allowing these plays to go on longer than several feet without sounding their whistle. Can you?

Billy, I would hope that every forum member would let these plays go on until a violation, foul or the end of a period occurred. There's no reason under the rules to stop play before that.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Billy, I would hope that every forum member would let these plays go on until a violation, foul or the end of a period occurred. There's no reason under the rules to stop play before that.

Unless you would have granted a timeout in such situations?

Granting timeout = player control = violation = dumb way to define player control. But has the NFHS left us any other options in situations like these (offensive rebound get batted to teammate in backcourt)?

[APG]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Unless you would have granted a timeout in such situations?

Granting timeout = player control = violation = dumb way to define player control. But has the NFHS left us any other options in situations like these (offensive rebound get batted to teammate in backcourt)?

I think you're thinking about this way way too hard. I've never heard of anyone having any real issue with defining player control...holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds. Your issuing is with defining what holding is and I feel using the timeout analogy makes this quite easy to determine.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

I think you're thinking about this way way too hard. I've never heard of anyone having any real issue with defining player control...holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds. You're issuing is with defining what holding is and I feel using the timeout analogy makes this quite easy to determine.

And, as I said earlier, I would have granted a time out. That doesn't mean that I would have been right to grant a timeout, but I would have, and thus, I guess that I was correct to call a travel. But something still feels wrong.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Unless you would have granted a timeout in such situations?

Granting timeout = player control = violation = dumb way to define player control. But has the NFHS left us any other options in situations like these (offensive rebound get batted to teammate in backcourt)?

There's part of the problem with your understanding of plays like this imo. Player control does not equal a violation. All player control means is that the traveling and dribbling rules now apply. What the player does after gaining player control dictates what we have to call. If the player travels or commits an illegal second dribble after gaining player control, we call the violation. And if the player makes a legal timout request, well we grant that timeout request. But if after gaining player control, the player legally dribbles, passes, shoots or holds the ball, we do nothing.

That's all I'm trying to tell you.

The accepted definition of when a player is "holding" the ball is when the ball comes to rest in the player's hand(s). That's one of the criteria that we use to judge when a dribble ends also. And holding the ball IS player control.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

There's part of the problem with your understanding of plays like this. Player control does not equal a violation. All player control means is that the traveling and dribbling rules now apply. What the player does after gaining player control dictates what we have to call. If the player travels or commits an illegal second dribble after gaining player control, we call the violation. And if the player makes a legal timeout request, well we grant that timeout request. That's all I'm trying to tell you.

Thanks for your patience. Among other things, I failed to mention in my original post that the player in question moved his pivot foot several times while playing the pinball version of keep away with the ball rolling on the floor.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Among other things, I failed to mention in my original post that the player in question moved his pivot foot several times while playing the pinball version of keep away with the ball rolling on the floor.

There is only a pivot foot applicable by rule when a player is actually holding the ball. Rule 4-44 as previously cited. Have you read case book play 4.15COMMENT?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

4.15 COMMENT?

4.15 COMMENT: It is not possible for a player to travel during a dribble. A player is not dribbling while slapping the ball during a jump, when a pass rebounds from his/her hand, when he/she fumbles, or when he/she bats a rebound or pass away from other players who are attempting to get it. The player is not in control under these conditions. It is a dribble when a player stands still and bounces the ball. It is not a dribble when a player stands still and holds the ball and touches it to the floor once or more than once.

As my gut feeling told me, I was wrong. Great citation. Right now my cat is licking the egg from all over my face. Where were you several hours ago? I would have also been wrong to grant a timeout during said play. Two wrongs don't make a right here, they just make it really, really wrong. I'll email the citation to my partner. She thought it was an illegal dribble.