Possesion Arrow Error

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jfpdi

recently heard this happened at a local VB game. 3 mins left in game, V team scores and calls a timeout. Coming out of timeout H team is slow, V team player steps out of bounds for the throw-in. Offical gives player the ball and he throws it in and his teammate makes an uncontested 3. As soon as the V team completed the throw-in V coach is in officials ear telling him it is not correctable. After V team makes the 3, H coach realizes what happened and is somewhat upset. Other official T's him. H team lost by 5.

1. B steps in for A's throw-in.
2. As soon as the throw-in is complete, coach is up saying it can't be corrected.
3. B1 makes a 3.
4. A coach goes ballistic.

Assuming the coach's comments come before the 3, there's an argument to be made that the ball becomes dead at that point; but are you really going to say you called a T on the coach for reminding you of the rule? You'd have to hit the whistle pretty quick to pull this off, IMO.

I've got no real problem with the T if your gut tells you coach planned the whole thing. But if it took me until after the 3 was made to figure it out, I'd have to question how "sure" I was.

[Adam]

New sitch:
A1 dribbling up the court. Just as he gets close to his three point line, A2 vents some frustration towards the official.

Right after his comments towards the official's lineage, A1 spots up for a three and makes it.

The official blows his whistle for the T while the shot is in flight.

Count the bucket?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

New sitch:
A1 dribbling up the court. Just as he gets close to his three point line, A2 vents some frustration towards the official.

Right after his comments towards the official's lineage, A1 spots up for a three and makes it.

The official blows his whistle for the T while the shot is in flight.

Count the bucket?

Clearly not.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

That's exactly what happens in 10.1.8. I realize the difference in the two situations, but the foul is "actually called" after the fact in both. If the shot is waved off in one, why would it not be waved off in the other?

Because the RULING in 10.1.8 very specifically states "This procedure shall not be used in any other throw-in situation in which a mistake allows the wrong team to inbound the ball." It covers one very specific situation only.

The throw-in situation described in post #6 is one in which a wrong team was also allowed to inbound the ball. And the RULING of case book play 6.4.1SitD tells us how to deal with those---> "Once the throw-in ends - it is too late to change anything."

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

New sitch:
A1 dribbling up the court. Just as he gets close to his three point line, A2 vents some frustration towards the official.

Right after his comments towards the official's lineage, A1 spots up for a three and makes it.

The official blows his whistle for the T while the shot is in flight.

Count the bucket?

Just had to stir it up didn't you

Hopefully the official blows the whistle immediately. If the shot was clearly in flight (has left the shooter's hands) well before the whistle, then yes, I'm probably going to count the shot. Don't know of a rule that supports any other action....

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Because the RULING in 10.1.8 very specifically states "This procedure shall not be used in any other throw-in situation in which a mistake allows the wrong team to inbound the ball." It covers one very specific situation only.

[/i]

True, but the procedure in this case includes putting "consumed" time back on the clock. No one is asking for that here.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

True, but the procedure in this case includes putting "consumed" time back on the clock. No one is asking for that here.

Naw, instead some people are saying you can void a basket that was legally made with a live ball. As of right now, I'm still waiting for a rules citation that will allow us to do that. And if you're going to try to use a technical foul called after the basket was made, you'd better have some kind of rules citation attached to that flight of fancy too. That particular scenario isn't worth responding to otherwise, as I told cobra. And if you try to tell me that you can retroactively call a technical foul after a live ball went through the basket, well, good luck backing up any assertation like that with a rules citation also.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Jfpdi

recently heard this happened at a local VB game. 3 mins left in game, V team scores and calls a timeout. Coming out of timeout H team is slow, V team player steps out of bounds for the throw-in. Offical gives player the ball and he throws it in and his teammate makes an uncontested 3. As soon as the V team completed the throw-in V coach is in officials ear telling him it is not correctable. After V team makes the 3, H coach realizes what happened and is somewhat upset. Other official T's him. H team lost by 5.

See SITUATION #1 of the 2002-03 Basketball Rules Interpretations linked below...

A1 calls a 60-second time-out in the backcourt. After the time-out ended, the official erroneously awards team B the ball for a sideline throw-in.
RULING: This is not a correctable error situation; play shall continue.

http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...s-archive.html

Rules rulz!

[Adam]

Originally Posted by TimTaylor

Just had to stir it up didn't you

Hopefully the official blows the whistle immediately. If the shot was clearly in flight (has left the shooter's hands) before the whistle, then yes, I'm going to count the shot. Don't know of a rule that supports any other action....

If A2 had committed a personal foul just prior to the shot, and the whistle didn't blow until the shot was in the air, you'd cancel that based on 6-7-7. The TF "occurred" when A2 spouted off, not when the whistle blew.
Camron's point is that the TF "occurs" when the team purposefully takes a throwin to which they're not entitled.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by TimTaylor

Just had to stir it up didn't you

Hopefully the official blows the whistle immediately. If the shot was clearly in flight (has left the shooter's hands) before the whistle, then yes, I'm going to count the shot. Don't know of a rule that supports any other action....

6-7-7. Ball is dead when A2 commits the foul. A1 shot a dead ball. The whistle only notifies everyone that a foul had occurred....it doesn't mark the exact time of the foul. Check out any of the many cases plays comparing the timing of a foul by A relative to the release of a shot. They are unanimously consistent in referring to when the infractions occur, not when the official blows the whistle.

Whether you want to call the T or not call the T in the case being discussed is OBVIOUSLY debatable and I've have to be absolutely sure before I did call a T. However, that is not the point being debated. The point being debates is that if a foul (T in this case) is called, the rules are quite clear that the ball is dead at the time of the act that draws the foul (6-7-7).

Any reference to 6.4.1 is a distraction. All it says is you can't kill the ball and give the ball back to the other team to correct the throwin mistake....nothing more. It is silent about what happens if another infraction occurs and is called. This case is a red herring in the purest sense.

Modified play:
Team B is incorrectly given the ball for the throw in. B1 passes the ball in to B3. B2 attempts to set a screen for B3 but does so illegally, committing a foul on A2. B3 releases the shot just after B2 fouls A2. Having not anticipated the call, the official then blows the whistle for B3's illegal screen. Does the shot count? Yes or No?

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

If A2 had committed a personal foul just prior to the shot, and the whistle didn't blow until the shot was in the air, you'd cancel that based on 6-7-7. The TF "occurred" when A2 spouted off, not when the whistle blew.
Camron's point is that the TF "occurs" when the team purposefully takes a throwin to which they're not entitled.

Snaq,

I understand Cam's point, but the case play he referenced applies only to action immediately after a made basket, not after an intervening TO. The difference is when the ball becomes live. In the case play, the ball never became live after the made basket because it was never at the disposal of a player from B for a throw-in. The T is actually for A preventing the ball from being promptly made live per 10-1-5-b.

By contrast, in the OP situation, the ball became live when handed to the player from A for the throw-in. It's an official's error and by rule can't be corrected after the throw-in ends.

Bottom line is the officials screwed the pooch if they let A have the ball instead of B following the TO. This is not a correctable error according to the 2002-2003 interp cited by JR. This is why the officials should always get together in these situations (TO after made basket) and confirm who gets the ball and where they get it.


In your new situation, timing is the issue. If the whistle for the T and the try occurred right on top of each other, then I can and would easily sell disallowing the try. But if there's a big delay between the try and the whistle, I can probably still sell it, but it's going to be a whole lot harder to do. That's why I said I hoped the whistle was immediate. There are times when a patient whistle is a good thing, but this isn't one of them.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by TimTaylor

Snaq,

I understand Cam's point, but the case play he referenced applies only to action immediately after a made basket, not after an intervening TO. The difference is when the ball becomes live. In the case play, the ball never became live after the made basket because it was never at the disposal of a player from B for a throw-in. The T is actually for A preventing the ball from being promptly made live per 10-1-5-b.

By contrast, in the OP situation, the ball became live when handed to the player from A for the throw-in. It's an official's error and by rule can't be corrected after the throw-in ends.

Bottom line is the officials screwed the pooch if they let A have the ball instead of B following the TO. This is not a correctable error according to the 2002-2003 interp cited by JR. This is why the officials should always get together in these situations (TO after made basket) and confirm who gets the ball and where they get it.


In your new situation, timing is the issue. If the whistle for the T and the try occurred right on top of each other, then I can and would easily sell disallowing the try. But if there's a big delay between the try and the whistle, I can probably still sell it, but it's going to be a whole lot harder to do. That's why I said I hoped the whistle was immediate. There are times when a patient whistle is a good thing, but this isn't one of them.

You're right about the case play, i think Camron was simply using it as inspiration to deal with this. Looking at 6-7-7, though, he's right if you deem taking the throw-in to be a technical foul. The ball is dead from the point of action that is deemed a foul.

You're right, it's a tough sell after the ball goes in.

If I'm thinking that quickly, though, I'm whistling B1 for a tech for crossing the OOB plain during a throw-in and touching the ball.

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

6-7-7. Ball is dead when A2 commits the foul. A1 shot a dead ball. The whistle only notifies everyone that a foul had occurred....it doesn't mark the exact time of the foul. Check out any of the many cases plays comparing the timing of a foul by A relative to the release of a shot. They are unanimously consistent in referring to when the infractions occur, not when the official blows the whistle.

Whether you want to call the T or not call the T in the case being discussed is OBVIOUSLY debatable and I've have to be absolutely sure before I did call a T. However, that is not the point being debated. The point being debates is that if a foul (T in this case) is called, the rules are quite clear that the ball is dead at the time of the act that draws the foul (6-7-7).

Any reference to 6.4.1 is a distraction. All it says is you can't kill the ball and give the ball back to the other team to correct the throwin mistake....nothing more. It is silent about what happens if another infraction occurs and is called. This case is a red herring in the purest sense.

Modified play:
Team B is incorrectly given the ball for the throw in. B1 passes the ball in to B3. B2 attempts to set a screen for B3 but does so illegally, committing a foul on A2. B3 releases the shot just after B2 fouls A2. Having not anticipated the call, the official then blows the whistle for B3's illegal screen. Does the shot count? Yes or No?

Depends when the foul occurs - if it's before the release, then ball becomes dead per 6-7-7 & we disallow the try. If the ball is in flight when the foul occurs, then exception "a" applies.

Regarding whether to call a T in the situation being discussed, see my reply to Snaq above.

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

.... Looking at 6-7-7, though, he's right if you deem taking the throw-in to be a technical foul. .

This is what I think would be almost impossible to justify - especially if the official makes the mistake by handing B1 the ball. Even at that, the officials can still correct it if they do so before the throw-in ends. But after the fact? How do we prove intent? It would be a very very difficult T to justify.

If I'm thinking that quickly, though, I'm whistling B1 for a tech for crossing the OOB plain during a throw-in and touching the ball.

Or just use 10-1-5-b "preventing the ball from being promptly made live".

Administering official says "A ball", then B1 steps OOB & tries to take the ball for throw-in. I have no problem with an immediate T for this.......

[Adam]

Originally Posted by TimTaylor

This is what I think would be almost impossible to justify - especially if the official makes the mistake by handing B1 the ball. Even at that, the officials can still correct it if they do so before the throw-in ends. But after the fact? How do we prove intent? It would be a very very difficult T to justify.



Or just use 10-1-5-b "preventing the ball from being promptly made live".

Administering official says "A ball", then B1 steps OOB & tries to take the ball for throw-in. I have no problem with an immediate T for this.......

I agree on both counts. I would counter that if A is slow coming out, B isn't delaying anything by pulling this, so it's hard to justify 10-1-5b. Also, we don't have to "prove" anything. We aren't a court of law, so there's no presumption of innocence. That said, it would have to be pretty obvious to me to make that call. If thinking fast enough, I'd likely go with a DoG warning (T if he touches the ball).