Possesion Arrow Error

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Naw, instead some people are saying you can void a basket that was legally made with a live ball. As of right now, I'm still waiting for a rules citation that will allow us to do that. And if you're going to try to use a technical foul called after the basket was made, you'd better have some kind of rules citation attached to that flight of fancy too. That particular scenario isn't worth responding to otherwise, as I told cobra. And if you try to tell me that you can retroactively call a technical foul after a live ball went through the basket, well, good luck backing up any assertation like that with a rules citation also.

You really don't get it. You don't understand live ball/dead ball. Not knowing all the rules isn't a big deal, but you should try to learn them instead of just arguing incorrectly.

6-7-7 says that the ball becomes dead or remains dead when a foul occurs (there are exceptions to this regarding tries and taps but they are not important for this play.) Notice that the ball becomes dead when the foul occurs not when the official sounds his whistle.

The official knows that the team is stepping out of bounds with the intent to get the ball when they know it isn't theirs. Right then the foul occurs. What did we say happens when a foul occurs? The ball remains dead. So the player then receives the ball from one of the officials and everyone runs around like the ball is live even though it is actually dead. The ball is passed around, the ball ends up going through the basket. Even though the players were acting as if the ball was live it was actually dead the entire time so it is not a goal.

Just remember that all fouls are called retroactively. The foul occurs which causes the ball to become or remain dead. At some point after that the official will call the foul. If the ball goes though the basket before the official calls the foul it doesn't count as a score because the ball was actually dead.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Cobra

6-7-7 says that the ball becomes dead or remains dead when a foul occurs (there are exceptions to this regarding tries and taps but they are not important for this play.) Notice that the ball becomes dead when the foul occurs not when the official sounds his whistle.

The official knows that the team is stepping out of bounds with the intent to get the ball when they know it isn't theirs. Right then the foul occurs. What did we say happens when a foul occurs? The ball remains dead. So the player then receives the ball from one of the officials and everyone runs around like the ball is live even though it is actually dead. The ball is passed around, the ball ends up going through the basket. Even though the players were acting as if the ball was live it was actually dead the entire time so it is not a goal.

You forgot to add that the officials and the players, after the ball was handed to the thrower for the throw-in, were all running around and acting as if the ball was live right up until the basket was made.

I get it.

You're saying that an official can hand the ball to a player for a throw-in. The player then makes a throw-in to a teammate while the official chops time in and the clock starts. That team can then pass the ball for any time period they want to before taking a shot. And after that shot was good, the official can THEN blow his whistle and call a technical foul on that team. And then cancel everything that happened before that, up to and including the throw-in, because the "T" occurred when the thrower was first was out of bounds before the throw-in started even though the technical foul wasn't actually called until umpty-ump seconds or minutes later.

A few questions.....
1) Why would the officials act as if the ball was live right from the start of the throw-in up until the made 3-pointer?
2) After the throw-in was completed and the administering official chopped time in and the clock started, how or do you correct the clock if.... say....the shooting team then took about 6 minutes to shoot?
3) Is there any time limit attached to how much time elapses between the occurence of the foul and blowing the whistle for that occurence?
4) Using that exact same logic, if that wrongly-given throw-in happened in the first quarter, could you still call the "T" in the fourth quarter and cancel everything that happened up to then?
5) Can you call that "T" right up until all officials have left the visual confines of the floor?
5) Did you even bother to read case book play 6.4.1SitD and that interp from 2002-03?
6) Are you an official?



I honestly don't really know what else to say.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

3) Is there any time limit attached to how much time elapses between the occurence of the foul and blowing the whistle for that occurence?

Not that I am aware of. You tell us. Is there?

5) Did you even bother to read case book play 6.4.1SitD and that interp from 2002-03?

Does this case involve a technical foul call? (justified or not) No. So how does it possibly apply? 6-4-1 deals with the arrow, which is not a part of this play at all.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Not that I am aware of. You tell us. Is there?

I expected something like that from Cobra but not really from you. Live and learn.

[rockyroad]

Hey JR, I think I finally get where they are coming from on this...

They're gonna have a "do over"!!

Oops - wrong team threw it in and then scored? That's OK. We'll just do it over!!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Hey JR, I think I finally get where they are coming from on this...

They're gonna have a "do over"!!

Oops - wrong team threw it in and then scored? That's OK. We'll just do it over!!

DJ, I have no idea anymore where they are coming from. And it's not worth citing the same rules, case plays and NFHS interps over and over again either when their very existence is being denied. Time to just let it go, I guess.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Not that I am aware of. You tell us. Is there?

I'm sure it's somewhere along the lines of the time limit for calling a travel or double dribble.

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) Why would the officials act as if the ball was live right from the start of the throw-in up until the made 3-pointer?

It is no different from any other foul. The foul occurs and everyone continues to act as if the ball is live while the official is deciding if it was a foul or not. The only difference is this play took longer than normal for the foul to be called.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

3) Is there any time limit attached to how much time elapses between the occurence of the foul and blowing the whistle for that occurence?

The rules don't say that there is a limit.

[M&M Guy]

Cobra and jar - let's change the play ever so slightly. Instead of B2 hitting a 3-pointer, they go up and slam the ball home, with authority. If the ball is indeed dead, would you charge B2 with a second T for purposely dunking a dead ball?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Cobra and jar - let's change the play ever so slightly. Instead of B2 hitting a 3-pointer, they go up and slam the ball home, with authority. If the ball is indeed dead, would you charge B2 with a second T for purposely dunking a dead ball?

No. He had no way of knowing the ball was dead.

[Loudwhistle]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Cobra and jar - let's change the play ever so slightly. Instead of B2 hitting a 3-pointer, they go up and slam the ball home, with authority. If the ball is indeed dead, would you charge B2 with a second T for purposely dunking a dead ball?

How would you prove that B2 knew it was a dead ball? From a player's perspective its a live ball, score with it!

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by just another ref

No. He had no way of knowing the ball was dead.

Originally Posted by Loudwhistle

How would you prove that B2 knew it was a dead ball? From a player's perspective its a live ball, score with it!

Is intent part of the rule?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Is intent part of the rule?

I would say it is. You used the word purposely in your original question.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I would say it is. You used the word purposely in your original question.

You may say it is, but the rule book disagrees. 10-3-3
dunk, or attempt to dunk, a dead ball.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Cobra

It is no different from any other foul. The foul occurs and everyone continues to act as if the ball is live while the official is deciding if it was a foul or not. The only difference is this play took longer than normal for the foul to be called.



The rules don't say that there is a limit.

So - again - let me see if I have this right (according to your interp)...

Team A is late coming out of timeout...Officials mistakenly allow team B to throw ball in...team B hits a 3 pointer...team A goes down and hits their own 3 pointer...team B comes back and turns ball over...team A goes down and scores 2...team B calls a timeout...Coach A then says "Hey wait a minute! That throw in should have been ours!"

You are sure - right down to your toes - that B did it on purpose...so you will now cancel A's 5 points, B's 3 points, call a T on the B Coach, administer the two shots and give A the ball at mid-court opposite for a throw in????

Do you put time back on the clock?