Possesion Arrow Error

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

You really don't know that it was not confusion on the players part, and a Coach who just happens to know the rule that says once the throw-in is completed it is too late to fix it...player is confused, coach recognized what was happening...so you are guessing that the Coach set it all up during the time-out?

How many teams really don't know who's ball it is coming out of a timeout...particularly the coach? For him to KNOW that it shouldn't have been his throwin at all and be that quick on the ruling, you're pretty gullible if you think it was all a big coincidence. Either the coach doesn't know or he does. He's not going to be ignorant of what is going on (thinking it is their ball) until the very moment the ball is touched inbounds and brilliant in recognizing that instant that it should have been the other team's ball and it is too late to correct the throwin.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

How many teams really don't know who's ball it is coming out of a timeout...particularly the coach? For him to KNOW that it shouldn't have been his throwin at all and be that quick on the ruling, you're pretty gullible if you think it was all a big coincidence. Either the coach doesn't know or he does. He's not going to be ignorant of what is going on (thinking it is their ball) until the very moment the ball is touched inbounds and brilliant in recognizing that instant that it should have been the other team's ball and it is too late to correct the throwin.

The post said the H team was slow coming out of the break...I have seen it before that the other team then steps up thinking it's their ball and have to be told to get out of there. So have you...in this case, the officials didn't catch it.

So when you decide to hit the whistle after the throw-in and T the V coach, you will then have to answer some pretty pointed questions...like "If you knew it wasn't their throw-in, why didn't you kill it before they threw it in?" and "Once you screwed up and let the wrong team throw it in, what magic crystal ball did you use to decide that the Coach and players did it on purpose?"

And the rules basis you have quoted so far will NOT help you in answering those questions from your Assignor and Board members...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

No. I'm addressing the situation here.....



...where is becomes apparent that V knew exactly what they were doing. I consider that unsportsmanlike. Without that, you have no indication that it was anything but confusion.

And I don't give a rat's azz if you consider that as unsportsmanlike or not. My point was and is that you have NO rules basis to void either that throw-in or the 3-point basket basket. And if you or JAR think differently, then cite a rule....any rule.

Even though the officials screwed up, it was still a legal throw-in made with a live ball and nothing occurred under the rules to make the ball dead until after the 3-point basket scored.

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And I don't give a rat's azz if you consider that as unsportsmanlike or not. My point was and is that you have NO rules basis to void either that throw-in or the 3-point basket basket. And if you or JAR think differently, then cite a rule....any rule.

Even though the officials screwed up, it was still a legal throw-in made with a live ball and nothing occurred under the rules to make the ball dead until after the 3-point basket scored.

The rules have been cited several times. The ball becomes dead when the foul occurs. The foul occurred before the throw in. At that point the ball became dead.

I really don't see why you are arguing this...this is a fundamental. The ball becomes dead when the foul occurs not when the official makes the call.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And I don't give a rat's azz if you consider that as unsportsmanlike or not. My point was and is that you have NO rules basis to void either that throw-in or the 3-point basket basket. And if you or JAR think differently, then cite a rule....any rule.

Even though the officials screwed up, it was still a legal throw-in made with a live ball and nothing occurred under the rules to make the ball dead until after the 3-point basket scored.

I'm not at all certain about the technical call in this case, but that is a given here, and not part of this particular debate.

Change it up. A1 has a throw-in under B's basket. B1 reaches across the line, takes the ball out of A1's hands, and quickly dunks. The official then sounds the whistle and signals the technical foul. Does the basket count?

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Cobra

The rules have been cited several times. The ball becomes dead when the foul occurs. The foul occurred before the throw in. At that point the ball became dead.

I really don't see why you are arguing this...this is a fundamental. The ball becomes dead when the foul occurs not when the official makes the call.

Oh boy...so again I will ask...ball is thrown-in. V shoots and makes a 3 pointer. H Coach then jumps and yells "Hey! Wait a minute..." and you realize that your crew just screwed up and you think that that d@mn V coach did it all on purpose. So you then 1)Wipe off the made 3 pointer and take it out of the book and 2) assess the T on the V Coach because - since you absolutely KNOW all the way down to your toes that he did it on purpose - the ball should have been dead before it was thrown in since that's when the Unsport. T happened...

Is that REALLY what you are going to do? Really and for true?

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I'm not at all certain about the technical call in this case, but that is a given here, and not part of this particular debate.

Change it up. A1 has a throw-in under B's basket. B1 reaches across the line, takes the ball out of A1's hands, and quickly dunks. The official then sounds the whistle and signals the technical foul. Does the basket count?

Bad comparison...in this case, there was no mistake by the Officials...in allowing the wrong team the throw-in, there is. Apples and donkeys.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Jfpdi

recently heard this happened at a local VB game. 3 mins left in game, V team scores and calls a timeout. Coming out of timeout H team is slow, V team player steps out of bounds for the throw-in. Offical gives player the ball and he throws it in and his teammate makes an uncontested 3. As soon as the V team completed the throw-in V coach is in officials ear telling him it is not correctable. After V team makes the 3, H coach realizes what happened and is somewhat upset. Other official T's him. H team lost by 5.

Let me go on the record on this one too from a rules standpoint.

-the awarding of a throw-in to the wrong team was an is an official's error
-as soon as the official administering the throw-in gave the thrower the ball, the ball became live(rule 6-1-2b)
-the throw-in ended when a V player on the court legally touched the ball(rule 4-42-5a)
- the 3-point shot counts because it was made with a live ball ( rule 5-1-1)

Once the throw-in ended, it was too late to change anything, including giving the wrong team the ball for the throw-in(case book play 6.4.1SitD) or voiding the made 3-point shot. You administer the 2 free throws for the technical foul on the H coach and give the V the ball for the throw-in.

And if anyone disagrees with that, please cite RULES to support your stance.

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

-the awarding of a throw-in to the wrong team was an is an official's error
-as soon as the official administering the throw-in gave the thrower the ball, the ball became live(rule 6-1-2b)
-the throw-in ended when a V player on the court legally touched the ball(rule 4-42-5a)
- the 3-point shot counts because it was made with a live ball ( rule 5-1-1)

You conveniently left out the foul that occurred.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Cobra

The rules have been cited several times. The ball becomes dead when the foul occurs. The foul occurred before the throw in. At that point the ball became dead.

I really don't see why you are arguing this...this is a fundamental. The ball becomes dead when the foul occurs not when the official makes the call.

What freaking foul? There was NO foul before the throw-in. And if you think differently, go back to post #6 of this thread and point a foul out to me. The ONLY foul that was called in that situation was a technical foul called AFTER the made 3-point shot.

Anf if you think that we can go back and retroactively call a technical foul in this situation after the 3-point basket was made, I'll say the same thing to you I said to everybody else. Cite a rule...any rule...that will let you do that.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Change it up. A1 has a throw-in under B's basket. B1 reaches across the line, takes the ball out of A1's hands, and quickly dunks. The official then sounds the whistle and signals the technical foul. Does the basket count?

JAR, that has got absolutely nothing to do with what we're arguing.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Let me go on the record on this one too from a rules standpoint.

-the awarding of a throw-in to the wrong team was an is an official's error
-as soon as the official administering the throw-in gave the thrower the ball, the ball became live(rule 6-1-2b)
-the throw-in ended when a V player on the court legally touched the ball(rule 4-42-5a)
- the 3-point shot counts because it was made with a live ball ( rule 5-1-1)

Once the throw-in ended, it was too late to change anything, including giving the wrong team the ball for the throw-in(case book play 6.4.1SitD) or voiding the made 3-point shot. You administer the 2 free throws for the technical foul on the H coach and give the V the ball for the throw-in.

And if anyone disagrees with that, please cite RULES to support your stance.

This is a technical foul situation, and clearly has nothing to do with 6.4.1D.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

JAR, that has got absolutely nothing to do with what we're arguing.

A technical foul was called for an action during the throw-in. The ball became dead at that point. Not when the official realized it. Not when he blew the whistle. Why is this different?

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Anf if you think that we can go back and retroactively call a technical foul in this situation after the 3-point basket was made, I'll say the same thing to you I said to everybody else. Cite a rule...any rule...that will let you do that.

All fouls are retroactively called. The foul occurs and it is not called by the official until a later time. You are trying to put a limit on the amount of time which can pass between the foul occurring and when it is called.

How about you post a citation which says how long an official has to call a foul after it occurs?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Jfpdi

recently heard this happened at a local VB game. 3 mins left in game, V team scores and calls a timeout. Coming out of timeout H team is slow, V team player steps out of bounds for the throw-in. Offical gives player the ball and he throws it in and his teammate makes an uncontested 3. As soon as the V team completed the throw-in V coach is in officials ear telling him it is not correctable. After V team makes the 3, H coach realizes what happened and is somewhat upset. Other official T's him. H team lost by 5.

Yo, cobra.....

Please let all of us know what foul was called above other than the the technical foul called on the H coach AFTER the 3-point shot. I sureashell can't find one.