Possesion Arrow Error

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Let's go back to Square One....

See above.....

By rule, the ball was live on the throw-in as soon as it was at the disposal of the thrower. The ball was still live after the throw-in ended. Once the throw-in ended, it was too late by rule to go back and change anything.

They then effectively would shoot a dead ball by rule ONLY if the official had called a technical foul...or had decided to call a technical foul and had not blown the whistle for it yet ... BEFORE the shot left the shooter's hand. If the official decided to call a technical foul after the shot was in the air, by rule the ball remains live until the shot is made or missed.

That was my point.

I don't presume to speak for Camron, but I think his point is this. Is a technical foul different from a personal foul? The action which caused the foul is what causes the ball to become dead, not the official's decision to make the call, and not the whistle.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I don't presume to speak for Camron, but I think his point is this. Is a technical foul different from a personal foul? The action which caused the foul is what causes the ball to become dead, not the official's decision to make the call, and not the whistle.

Exactly....and it is a pretty basic rule.

The dead ball rule doesn't differentiate between types of foul....just that a foul, when it occurs, makes the ball dead (with exceptions for continuous motion and a try already in the air). The whistle only causes the ball to become dead when it is not for an infraction or not already dead for an infraction.

Basketball rules fundamental....

16. The official’s whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead (it is already dead).

In this case, the infraction, when it is committed, causes the ball to become dead immediately, not the whistle itself nor after the after the time it takes for the official to recognize the infraction. If the shot is not in the air when the foul occurs, it can not count. In this case, the foul clearly occurred before the try was in the air.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Let's go back to Square One....

See above.....

By rule.....by rule.... by rule ....

That was my point.

No matter how many times you say "by rule", it will not change what the rule actually says.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I don't presume to speak for Camron, but I think his point is this. Is a technical foul different from a personal foul? The action which caused the foul is what causes the ball to become dead, not the official's decision to make the call, and not the whistle.

And my point is that in the OP there was absolutely nothing that occurred that would make the ball dead before the foul call. And if the attempted shot where the foul occurred went in, it would have counted.

I was also agreeing that a technical foul being called before the shot attempt would also make the ball dead.

I have no idea how we got seem to have gotten so far off track from that.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And my point is that in the OP there was absolutely nothing that occurred that would make the ball dead before the foul call. And if the attempted shot where the foul occurred went in, it would have counted.

I was also agreeing that a technical foul being called before the shot attempt would also make the ball dead.

I have no idea how we got seem to have gotten so far off track from that.

The call is not what makes the ball dead. It is when the foul occurs. When did it occur in this case? The team used devious methods to accept a throw-in to which it was not entitled. The ball was dead when they threw it in. No basket.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The call is not what makes the ball dead. It is when the foul occurs. When did it occur in this case? The team used devious methods to accept a throw-in to which it was not entitled. The ball was dead when they threw it in. No basket.

Say what?

Howinthehell can the ball be dead on the throw-in if there NEVER was a whistle? There NEVER was a technical foul called. There was NO whistle for a technical foul EVER.

You have absolutely no rules justification to state that the ball was dead. And if you think differently, cite a rule to back it up.

Did you even bother to read case book play 6.4.1SitD?

That's ridiculous!

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Say what?

Howinthehell can the ball be dead on the throw-in if there NEVER was a whistle? There NEVER was a technical foul called. There was NO whistle for a technical foul EVER.

You have absolutely no rules justification to state that the ball was dead. And if you think differently, cite a rule to back it up.

Did you even bother to read case book play 6.4.1SitD?

That's ridiculous!

Are you blind or just playing dumb?

The rule AND the rule fundamental have been cited, both of which clearly refute your assertion that it takes the whistle to actually make the ball dead.

The case you're citing has NOTHING to do with a a foul, much less an unsportsmanlike foul. It refers to a simple throwin mistake in isolation.

Once again, when the official decides to call an unsportsmanlike technical foul and/or blows the whistle, the ball is retroactively dead to the time of the act that drew the technical foul. Rule 6-7-7 (note the word "occurs") and rule fundamental 16.

[rockyroad]

So, Camron, what you are basically saying is that you would have handled the updated scenario stated earlier in the thread in this way:

V throws ball in, shoots and makes a three pointer. H Coach jumps up and yells "Hey, wait a minute..." You then realize that V should not have had the throw-in, decide they did it purposely, and then take the three points off the board/out of the scorebook, and assess a T on the V Coach.

Is that really what you are saying here?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

So, Camron, what you are basically saying is that you would have handled the updated scenario stated earlier in the thread in this way:

V throws ball in, shoots and makes a three pointer. H Coach jumps up and yells "Hey, wait a minute..." You then realize that V should not have had the throw-in, decide they did it purposely, and then take the three points off the board/out of the scorebook, and assess a T on the V Coach.

Is that really what you are saying here?

No. I'm addressing the situation here.....

Originally Posted by Jfpdi

recently heard this happened at a local VB game. 3 mins left in game, V team scores and calls a timeout. Coming out of timeout H team is slow, V team player steps out of bounds for the throw-in. Offical gives player the ball and he throws it in and his teammate makes an uncontested 3. As soon as the V team completed the throw-in V coach is in officials ear telling him it is not correctable. After V team makes the 3, H coach realizes what happened and is somewhat upset. Other official T's him. H team lost by 5.

...where is becomes apparent that V knew exactly what they were doing. I consider that unsportsmanlike. Without that, you have no indication that it was anything but confusion.