Possesion Arrow Error

[refiator]

An "Uncorrectable Error" due to the lack of focus of the crew! These are the things that become second nature with experience....You must observe so much more than just the action of the game.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The only case play that is close is the one where the scoring team deliberate takes the ball OOB (when it should be the other team's ball) and throws it in. But that is close enough for me. They're going to lose that 3 pointer (it was a dead ball), give up 2 FTs and the ball.

Case book play 6.4.1SitD plainly states in the RULING "Once the throw-in ends - it is too late to change anything."

NFHS rule 6-1-2(b) says the ball was live on the throw-in when it was at the disposal of the player. By rule 6-7-1, the ball remained live until the 3-pointer was made.

Unfortunately we have no rules backing to take away that made 3-pointer. It might not be fair bit it it is correct, by rule. The officials just have to live with their screw-up.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Loudwhistle

Thanks BBRF, sorry Cameron, see the whole picture now.

FWIW, I don't necessarily agree. In this play, the official administers the throw-in to the thrower for the wrong team. In the case play, the wrong team takes the ball after the made basket and inbounds it. Finally, the case play says, "This procedure shall not be used in any other throw-in situation in which a mistake allows the wrong team to inbound the ball."

[Loudwhistle]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Case book play 6.4.1SitD plainly states in the RULING "Once the throw-in ends - it is too late to change anything."

NFHS rule 6-1-2(b) says the ball was live on the throw-in when it was at the disposal of the player. By rule 6-7-1, the ball remained live until the 3-pointer was made.

Unfortunately we have no rules backing to take away that made 3-pointer. It might not be fair bit it it is correct, by rule. The officials just have to live with their screw-up.

A SPECIFIC UNSPORTING ACT
10.1.8 SITUATION: Immediately following a goal or free throw by Team A, A1 inbounds the ball to A2 and A2 subsequently throws the ball through A's basket.
RULING: The following procedure has been adopted to handle this specific situation if it is recognized before the opponents gain control or before the next throw-in begins: (a) charge Team A with a technical foul; (b) cancel the field goal; (c) cancel any common foul(s) committed and any nonflagrant foul against A2 in the act of shooting; and (d) put “consumed” time back on the clock.
COMMENT: If there is no doubt the throw-in was a result of confusion, the entire procedure would be followed except no technical foul would be charged. This procedure shall not be used in any other throw-in situation in which a mistake allows the wrong team to inbound the ball.

JR,
That was why I asked my original question. This OP was different because the reff "made" the ball live by handing the ball to the player. And we know once the throwin is complete, its not changeable. In the comment section of the case play the, "If there is no doubt the throw-in was a result of confusion" I took this to mean that the "confusion" can also be with the reff versus the players. In the OP the players and coach intentionally "confuse" the reff, couldn't one use this to say that this is not covered by rule and thus wipe the made 3 away?

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Loudwhistle

A SPECIFIC UNSPORTING ACT
10.1.8 SITUATION: Immediately following a goal or free throw by Team A, A1 inbounds the ball to A2 and A2 subsequently throws the ball through A's basket.
RULING: The following procedure has been adopted to handle this specific situation if it is recognized before the opponents gain control or before the next throw-in begins: (a) charge Team A with a technical foul; (b) cancel the field goal; (c) cancel any common foul(s) committed and any nonflagrant foul against A2 in the act of shooting; and (d) put “consumed” time back on the clock.
COMMENT: If there is no doubt the throw-in was a result of confusion, the entire procedure would be followed except no technical foul would be charged. This procedure shall not be used in any other throw-in situation in which a mistake allows the wrong team to inbound the ball.

JR,
That was why I asked my original question. This OP was different because the reff "made" the ball live by handing the ball to the player. And we know once the throwin is complete, its not changeable. In the comment section of the case play the, "If there is no doubt the throw-in was a result of confusion" I took this to mean that the "confusion" can also be with the reff versus the players. In the OP the players and coach intentionally "confuse" the reff, couldn't one use this to say that this is not covered by rule and thus wipe the made 3 away?

How is it not covered by rule when the case play specifically states,

"This procedure shall not be used in any other throw-in situation in which a mistake allows the wrong team to inbound the ball."

[Indianaref]

This case play fits the situation:

THROW-IN BY WRONG TEAM BY MISTAKE
7.5.2 SITUATION B: Team A is awarded a throw-in near the division line. The administering official by mistake, puts the ball at B1's disposal. B1 completes the throw-in and Team B subsequently scores a goal. RULING: No correction can be made for the mistake by the official.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Case book play 6.4.1SitD plainly states in the RULING "Once the throw-in ends - it is too late to change anything."

NFHS rule 6-1-2(b) says the ball was live on the throw-in when it was at the disposal of the player. By rule 6-7-1, the ball remained live until the 3-pointer was made.

Unfortunately we have no rules backing to take away that made 3-pointer. It might not be fair bit it it is correct, by rule. The officials just have to live with their screw-up.

All true, but at that point, the 3-pointer in question hasn't even been attempted yet. Sure you can't change anything (relative to that throwin), but it doesn't say you can't call something else. If you're going to call an unsporting T for the team deliberately pulling such a stunt, the team will be shooting such a dead ball. This sort of deception and trickery is, without a doubt, unsportsmanlike and is quite different than a player from team B believing it was their ball. It is no different than the barking dog play antics that the NFHS has clearly indicated is not in the spirit of the game.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

All true, but at that point, the 3-pointer in question hasn't even been attempted yet. Sure you can't change anything (relative to that throwin), but it doesn't say you can't call something else. If you're going to call an unsporting T for the team deliberately pulling such a stunt, the team will be shooting such a dead ball.

I'd have a hard time issuing a T for this when the official handed them the ball.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

All true, but at that point, the 3-pointer in question hasn't even been attempted yet. Sure you can't change anything (relative to that throwin), but it doesn't say you can't call something else. If you're going to call an unsporting T for the team deliberately pulling such a stunt, the team will be shooting such a dead ball. This sort of deception and trickery is, without a doubt, unsportsmanlike and is quite different than a player from team B believing it was their ball. It is no different than the barking dog play antics that the NFHS has clearly indicated is not in the spirit of the game.

If you call an unsporting "T" before the 3-point attempt is made, of course you can disallow the 3-pointer by rule. The ball was dead on the whistle for the "T". However, you have no rules justication that I know of that will let you disallow the 3-pointer after it was made.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'd have a hard time issuing a T for this when the official handed them the ball.

Unsporting "T"s are usually a judgment call......and judgment varies from official to official.

[26 Year Gap]

Wonder what would have happened if Resumption of Play procedure had been used? Could a T have been issued when V coach said it was too late for the DOG violation/technical for reaching through the plane and touching the ball? Just playing Agitator's Advocate here.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If you call an unsporting "T" before the 3-point attempt is made, of course you can disallow the 3-pointer by rule. The ball was dead on the whistle for the "T". However, you have no rules justication that I know of that will let you disallow the 3-pointer after it was made.

As you know, the whistle rarely makes the ball dead. It is just an indication that the ball is dead and has been since the point of the infraction. A late whistle doesn't change that fact.

The point at which I think about whether the situation should or should not be a T will be the point the ball became dead, not when I finally put air in the whistle.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

As you know, the whistle rarely makes the ball dead. It is just an indication that the ball is dead and has been since the point of the infraction. A late whistle doesn't change that fact.

The point at which I think about whether the situation should or should not be a T will be the point the ball became dead, not when I finally put air in the whistle.

You have no rules justification for that statement that I'm aware of. The ball is not dead either when you decide a "T" should be called or when you blow your whistle IF a shot is already in the air. That's NFHS rule 6-7-5 + EXCEPTION a.

If you haven't decided to call the "T" or had not blown your whistle before the ball left the shooter's hands on the 3-point attempt, you have no rules justication that I know of to then cancel the 3-point basket if it goes. The ball is live until the try is made or missed.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You have no rules justification for that statement that I'm aware of. The ball is not dead either when you decide a "T" should be called or when you blow your whistle IF a shot is already in the air. That's NFHS rule 6-7-5 + EXCEPTION a.

If you haven't decided to call the "T" or had not blown your whistle before the ball left the shooter's hands on the 3-point attempt, you have no rules justication that I know of to then cancel the 3-point basket if it goes. The ball is live until the try is made or missed.

No one said the ball was already in the air.

SECTION 7 DEAD BALL
The ball becomes dead, or remains dead, when:
ART. 7 . . . A foul (other than player-control) occurs (see exception below)

.

The whistle only makes the ball dead when it is not preceded by something that already made it dead.

The point of the infraction is what matters, not when the official decides to blow the whistle or actually blows the whistle.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The throwin can't be corrected but the 3-pointer was made AFTER the throwin was completed. They effectively shot a dead ball...even if it took a moment for the official to realize what just happened.

Camron, that's the statement that I've been commenting on. By rule, the player only shot a dead ball if the official had decided to call the technical foul before the ball left the shooter's hands.

I agree that the official can decide to call an unsporting foul on this play. That is always a judgment call. But the ball is still live after the throw-in until the official decides to call that technical foul. And additionally, if the ball is in the air on a 3-point try when the official decides to call the unsporting "T", then the technical foul call does not make the ball dead by rule.

We can't retroactively declare the ball dead. We have to follow the rules. That was my point.