Subs with multiple fouls

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Rule 3-3-1(c) is telling us what the substitution restrictions are for multiple free throws resulting from personal fouls. The situation described does NOT have multiple free throws resulting from personal fouls. It has multiple free throws resulting from personal and technical fouls. Therefore we can't use 3-3-1(c). It ain't applicable. If it was applicable, the rulesmakers wouldn't have specified personal fouls only. That means we have to look and see which other rule is applicable. And the only one available that is applicable is 3-3-1(d).

Rules rulz!

See if any of you can find something that states you can't bring the subs in as soon as the fouls are reported. Also see if you can find anything that states that you can't bring another legally reported sub(s) in after any one of the free throws in the sequence also. I don't know of any rule that says you can't but I'm sure willing to learn.

Y'all think too damn much.

So, you're saying a double foul is its own entity, rather than simply two separate fouls? That's what it boils down to, it seems.

The way I see the situation, it has multiple free throws from a personal foul followed by multiple free throws from a technical foul.

New Sitch:
A1 fouled while shooting an unsuccessfull three point shot. During the first FT, Coach A is in the ear of the T, earning himself a seatbelt immediately after the first FT goes in. Subs are at the table as the T reports the T.

Are you letting them in now rather than after the 2nd (of 3) FT?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

1) So, you're saying a double foul is its own entity, rather than simply two separate fouls?

2) New Sitch:
A1 fouled while shooting an unsuccessfull three point shot. During the first FT, Coach A is in the ear of the T, earning himself a seatbelt immediately after the first FT goes in. Subs are at the table as the T reports the T. Are you letting them in now rather than after the 2nd (of 3) FT?

1) Naw, that's too deep for a dummy like me. I'm saying that I just try to follow a rule that I can show someone if questioned. That 3-3-1(d) in this situation.

2) Why wouldn't you? You now have left multiple free throws resulting from personal and technical fouls, not multiple free throws resulting from personal fouls only. NFHS rule 3-3-1(c) no longer is applicable and 3-3-1(d) is.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

See if any of you can find something that states you can't bring the subs in as soon as the fouls are reported. Also see if you can find anything that states that you can't bring another legally reported sub(s) in after any one of the free throws in the sequence also. I don't know of any rule that says you can't but I'm sure willing to learn.

Y'all think too damn much.

You mean like...

See if you can find something that states a player on the floor with the ball can do anything other than pass, shoot, start a dribble, request a time-out or sit up if he's on his back.

Y'all were thinking too damn much.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) Naw, that's too deep for a dummy like me. I'm saying that I just try to follow a rule that I can show someone if questioned. That 3-3-1(d) in this situation.

2) Why wouldn't you? You now have left multiple free throws resulting from personal and technical fouls, not multiple free throws resulting from personal fouls only. NFHS rule 3-3-1(c) no longer is applicable and 3-3-1(d) is.

I've got multiple free throws resulting from a personal foul, followed by multiple free throws resulting from a technical foul. The word "only" isn't in 3-3-1C (at least not in my IAABO book). Methinks you're thinking too much.

[referee99]

...unless we need to get a player off the floor, or if coach wants a player off the floor, or if coach wants a sub to enter to attempt the throws for the T.

Easier to manage subs later if I had my druthers.

[BktBallRef]

There is ZERO rules basis for making the subs wait until all FTs are shot.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

There is ZERO rules basis for making the subs wait until all FTs are shot.

Agreed. E isn't even an option IMO. I don't see how anything except A or B can even be considered.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I've got multiple free throws resulting from a personal foul, followed by multiple free throws resulting from a technical foul. The word "only" isn't in 3-3-1C (at least not in my IAABO book). Methinks you're thinking too much.

Rules are (generally) written assuming "nothing else happens." So, if there are FTs from one PF, then subs come in before the last FT.

Nothing seems to be mentioned about T's or double fouls (what if in the OP the second foul had been a PF -- perhas B2 fouls A2 during the first FT for the PF), of false double fouls (what if the order was reversed -- dead ball T followed by PF during one of the FTs for the T -- do we still wait until the last PF FT?)

[Scratch85]

In case of a False Double Foul or a False Multiple Foul, each foul carries its' own penalty.

We are instructed to treat the fouls as two separate occurrences and I believe we should administer and conduct the game accordingly. IMO. that means I will have two separate and independent actions.

I choose B for the 3 subs that are at the table in OP. Another thought is, the method of bringing in subs during multiple FT's was created to prevent delays. If we chose A, we must also allow any sub that reports to the table before the ball is at the Free-thrower's disposal but after the 3 subs were beckoned, to enter the game. Here come the delays that the rule is trying to prevent.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

The situation described does NOT have multiple free throws resulting from personal fouls. It has multiple free throws resulting from personal and technical fouls. Therefore we can't use 3-3-1(c).

Your logic is lacking in...logic. Just because there is also a technical foul does not negate the fact that there are multiple free throws resulting from a personal foul. I guess it depends on what the definition of "and" is

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Y'all think too damn much.

Yep. But you're hardly the first person to tell me that.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I've got multiple free throws resulting from a personal foul, followed by multiple free throws resulting from a technical foul. The word "only" isn't in 3-3-1C (at least not in my IAABO book). Methinks you're thinking too much.

I agree with this point. However, if a T has been called, I'm going to let the coach remove the offending player ASAP if that is his desire.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I agree with this point. However, if a T has been called, I'm going to let the coach remove the offending player ASAP if that is his desire.

I agree with this in practice.

[just another ref]

Intent and purpose of the rule. The reason for allowing subs before the last free throw on a personal foul is to have only one pause before the ball may first be back in play, instead of two or three. That doesn't apply here.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Intent and purpose of the rule. The reason for allowing subs before the last free throw on a personal foul is to have only one pause before the ball may first be back in play, instead of two or three. That doesn't apply here.

Sure it does; it cuts down on 1 of those potential pauses.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Sure it does; it cuts down on 1 of those potential pauses.

So make it after all the free throws for the personal.