Subs with multiple fouls

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If you're talking about that "roll over" thread, that one was an interpretation of rules language. We disagreed on the interpretation of what constitutes a "roll" and we still do. And we probably will until the FED issues something on it (if ever). Is that what you're talking about?

This thread is different. There is just no rules language that I know of that says you can't bring the subs in immediately after reporting the personal and technical fouls. And 3-3-01(d) says you can.

Yes, but there's no language to interpret in the traveling case play. The ruling in 4.44.5B says a player who is on the floor, holding the ball, can pass, shoot, start a dribble, request a time-out or sit up if he's on his back. Those are the ONLY things the ruling says the player CAN do.

Further, it specifically says that he can sit up if he's flat out his back. So why wouldn't the ruling include that he could roll to his side if it was allowed? Why would it tell us one thing he can do but ignore another if it was allowed?

I guess we can imagine. Mr. FED says, "Well, actually he can sit up if he's on his back and he can roll to his side but we just decided not to include that part in the ruling."

Sorry Woddy but that makes no sense. If he were allowed to roll to his side, they would have included that with the sitting up statement.

Merry Christmas!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Yes, but there's no language to interpret in the traveling case play. The ruling in 4.44.5B says a player who is on the floor, holding the ball, can pass, shoot, start a dribble, request a time-out or sit up if he's on his back. Those are the ONLY things the ruling says the player CAN do.

Further, it specifically says that he can sit up if he's flat out his back. So why wouldn't the ruling include that he could roll to his side if it was allowed? Why would it tell us one thing he can do but ignore another if it was allowed?

I guess we can imagine. Mr. FED says, "Well, actually he can sit up if he's on his back and he can roll to his side but we just decided not to include that part in the ruling."

Sorry Woddy but that makes no sense. If he were allowed to roll to his side, they would have included that with the sitting up statement.

Merry Christmas!

You don't have 4.44.5SitB in your case book? The case book play that says "A1 may pass, shoot, dribble or call a timeout. Once A1 has the ball and is no longer sliding, he/she may not roll OVER."? Somebody steal that case book play? And at Christmas too?

Case book plays are put out to clarify rules. It's true, it's true.....

We disagree. Shrug.

You and your family have a great Christmas too, Tony.

[Scratch85]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

(what if the order was reversed -- dead ball T followed by PF during one of the FTs for the T -- do we still wait until the last PF FT?)

Originally Posted by Scratch85

First we would have a mess on our hands. A contact foul during a T FT sounds ugly.

IMO, allow subs before first T FT, before second T FT and before last PF FT.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Sooooo....if the fouls were reversed in this situation and the technical foul preceded the personal foul, you'd keep all subs out until after the technical foul penalty is completed and there is only one FT left for the personal foul penalty? Or would you allow a sub in to shoot one or both of the technical foul FT's as allowed under 8-3, but not let the other eligible subs at the table come in during that same substitution opportunity?

Nope. I would do what I said earlier. As the rules tell us to do.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You don't have 4.44.5SitB in your case book? The case book play that says "A1 may pass, shoot, dribble or call a timeout. Once A1 has the ball and is no longer sliding, he/she may not roll OVER."?.

Yes, I quoted it. Why did you omit the rest of the ruling? If flat on his/her back, A1 may sit up without violating.

And why didn't you answer my question?

The ruling tells us what the player CAN do. "pass, shoot, dribble or call a timeout...If flat on his/her back, A1 may sit up."

Nowhere does it tell us he can roll over on his side. Wonder why that is?

It's real simple...it's just not there. Merry Christmas to you and yours as well.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

The ruling tells us what the player CAN do. "pass, shoot, dribble or call a timeout...If flat on his/her back, A1 may sit up."

Nowhere does it tell us he can roll over on his side. Wonder why that is?

It's real simple...it's just not there.

It's not in the rule. It's in the case play.

Are you really saying a player either laying flat or sitting can't roll to the side while making a pass?

We disagree. Shrug.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

It's not in the rule. It's in the case play.

Are you really saying a player either laying flat or sitting can't roll to the side while making a pass?

We disagree. Shrug.

If they roll all the way onto their side with the ball, no, that is "rolling over" and the case play supports that interpretation by excluding that action from the list of permissible actions.

If they rock towards the side in the motion of passing the ball....no violation.

Sort of like a standing player taking a step forward with their pivot foot that would be a travel if had they not just released the ball before the foot came back down.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

If they roll all the way onto their side with the ball, no, that is "rolling over" and the case play supports that interpretation by excluding that action from the list of permissible actions.

And there's where we disagree. I say that it is a roll but it is not a roll over. And I also say the case play supports that with it's usage of the word "over".

Who's right?

We can argue forever but until we get a definitive interpretation from the FED, who knows? Until then we're just going around in circles.

JMO....obviously.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And there's where we disagree. I say that it is a roll but it is not a roll over.

Makes no difference.

The point is the case play tells us what is legally allowed and "roll" is NOT listed. Pass, shoot, dribble, call timeout or sit up. Those are the ONLY legal actions listed. I don't see how you can disagree with that when it's printed in black and white. :shrug:

But I'll leave you along now. Have yourself a Merry Little Christmas!