The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

View Poll Results: When can the subs enter?
Immediately after the fouls are reported to the table 14 45.16%
Before the final (second) free throw for the personal foul 12 38.71%
After the final free throw for the personal foul 0 0%
Before the final (second) free throw for the technical foul 0 0%
After all free throws have been attempted 5 16.13%
Voters: 31. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 23, 2010, 09:24am
Lighten up, Francis.
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,604
Subs with multiple fouls

NFHS rules. False double foul. Personal foul by A1 followed by dead ball contact technical foul by B1. The personal foul results in the automatic bonus. So we're going to shoot 2 free throws at one basket and then two free throws at the other basket.

There are 3 subs at the table before the personal foul is called. Assuming none of the subs is going to attempt the free throws for the technical foul, when are these subs allowed to enter the game by rule?

A) Immediately after the two fouls are reported
B) After the first free throw for the personal foul
C) After the second free throw for the personal foul
D) Before the final (second) free throw for the technical foul
E) After all the free throws are completed

I'd appreciate any rule citation you can give for your answer. Thanks.

Last edited by Scrapper1; Thu Dec 23, 2010 at 10:33am.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 23, 2010, 09:51am
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,211
Bring 'em in immediately. The correct answer is A. You only restrict entry on multiple free throws resulting from personal fouls, not personal and technicals. NFHS rule 3-3-1(c).
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 23, 2010, 10:06am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 14,616
Agreed, which means the correct answer is actually ALL OF THE ABOVE.

Subs can enter during any of these opportunities.

Whether one of the subs is going to attempt a FT for the technical makes no diference.
__________________
"...as cool as the other side of the pillow." - Stuart Scott

"You should never be proud of doing the right thing." - Dean Smith
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 23, 2010, 10:08am
Fav theme: Roundball Rock
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Near Dog River (sorta)
Posts: 8,558
I bring 'em in (A). I don't overrule my P if he does otherwise. That's OOO imo.

Another interesting question for rookies is what are ramifications of bringing them in at one point over another point.
__________________
Pope Francis
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 23, 2010, 10:25am
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,190
Not that I'd stop my partner from doing it, or even ask about it later, but wouldn't B be the correct answer? False double fouls are really just two separate fouls, right?
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 23, 2010, 10:27am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 18,016
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1 View Post
False double foul. Personal foul by A1 followed by dead ball contact technical foul by B1. The personal foul results in the automatic bonus. So we're going to shoot 2 free throws at one basket and then two free throws at the other basket.

There are 3 subs at the table before the personal foul is called. Assuming none of the subs is going to attempt the free throws for the technical foul, when are these subs allowed to enter the game by rule?

A) Immediately after the two fouls are reported
B) After the first free throw for the personal foul
C) After the second free throw for the personal foul
D) Before the final (second) free throw for the technical foul
E) After all the free throws are completed

I'd appreciate any rule citation you can give for your answer. Thanks.
Under NCAA, I'm going with E. It's kind of like "when are players allowed along the FT lane?" If the ball might stay live, then let the players along the line and let the subs in; otherwise, no players, no subs (and, yes, I recognize the analogy doesn't hold exactly).
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 23, 2010, 10:30am
Lighten up, Francis.
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,604
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
Not that I'd stop my partner from doing it, or even ask about it later, but wouldn't B be the correct answer? False double fouls are really just two separate fouls, right?
I have to admit, that this was my thought, too. The rule specifically says "During multiple free throws resulting from personal fouls. . ." And here we have multiple free throws (due to the automatic bonus) that have resulted from a personal foul. It seems to fit the rule exactly.

Somebody convince me why it doesn't.

P.S. -- the reason I post this is because I was asked by another pretty good official who chose E in his game last night.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 23, 2010, 10:32am
Lighten up, Francis.
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,604
To Rich's point, I should have clarified. . . this was a high school game. Sorry for any confusion. I'll edit the original post.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 23, 2010, 10:47am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 782
Quote:
Originally Posted by BktBallRef View Post
Agreed, which means the correct answer is actually ALL OF THE ABOVE.

Subs can enter during any of these opportunities.

Whether one of the subs is going to attempt a FT for the technical makes no diference.
It seems to me that part of the reasoning for allowing subs to enter after a 1st of 2 free throws is to allow the coaches to manage their personnel according to the game situation, which includes, which of their players they want on the lane for rebounding a possible missed free throw. Since the subs are ready, and there will be no available rebound, bring them in, at any of the moments listed. And keeping with this thought, after all the free throws have been attempted, if there are eliglble subs at the table, bring them in, which allows the coaches to manage the game situation that has resulted from the new game situation after the free throws.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 23, 2010, 10:50am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 14,616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob1968 View Post
It seems to me that part of the reasoning for allowing subs to enter after a 1st of 2 free throws is to allow the coaches to manage their personnel according to the game situation, which includes, which of their players they want on the lane for rebounding a possible missed free throw. Since the subs are ready, and there will be no available rebound, bring them in, at any of the moments listed. And keeping with this thought, after all the free throws have been attempted, if there are eliglble subs at the table, bring them in, which allows the coaches to manage the game situation that has resulted from the new game situation after the free throws.
While all that is probably true, that's WAY over thinking it to me.

I can see B as the answer but I would have no problem with bringing them in immediately.
__________________
"...as cool as the other side of the pillow." - Stuart Scott

"You should never be proud of doing the right thing." - Dean Smith

Last edited by BktBallRef; Thu Dec 23, 2010 at 06:10pm.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 23, 2010, 10:52am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 14,616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1 View Post
P.S. -- the reason I post this is because I was asked by another pretty good official who chose E in his game last night.
If there's one thing I'm 100% sure of, it's that the answer is NOT E.
__________________
"...as cool as the other side of the pillow." - Stuart Scott

"You should never be proud of doing the right thing." - Dean Smith
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 23, 2010, 11:11am
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,211
Can anybody cite me an NFHS rule that will deny entry to substitutes who have met the restrictions of NFHS rule 3-3-1(d)?

NFHS 3-3-1(d)--"If entry is at any other time than between quarters, and a substitute who is entitled and ready to enter reports to the scorer, the scorer shall use a sounding device or game horn, if, or as soon as, the ball is dead and the clock is stopped."

Someone please tell me howinthehell this rule does NOT apply to the situation described in the original post? We already know the free throw restrictions outlined in 3-3-1(c) don't apply.

You have no rules justification under NFHS rules to NOT immediately bring in those subs.

Last edited by Jurassic Referee; Thu Dec 23, 2010 at 11:14am.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 23, 2010, 11:15am
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,190
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee View Post
We already know the free throw restrictions outlined in 3-3-1(c) don't apply.
You may know this, JR, but "we" don't. Why don't they apply? I agree that if they don't apply, then the answer is A. But that's an "if" I'm not ready to concede yet.
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 23, 2010, 11:28am
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,211
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
You may know this, JR, but "we" don't. Why don't they apply? I agree that if they don't apply, then the answer is A. But that's an "if" I'm not ready to concede yet.
Rule 3-3-1(c) is telling us what the substitution restrictions are for multiple free throws resulting from personal fouls. The situation described does NOT have multiple free throws resulting from personal fouls. It has multiple free throws resulting from personal and technical fouls. Therefore we can't use 3-3-1(c). It ain't applicable. If it was applicable, the rulesmakers wouldn't have specified personal fouls only. That means we have to look and see which other rule is applicable. And the only one available that is applicable is 3-3-1(d).

Rules rulz!

See if any of you can find something that states you can't bring the subs in as soon as the fouls are reported. Also see if you can find anything that states that you can't bring another legally reported sub(s) in after any one of the free throws in the sequence also. I don't know of any rule that says you can't but I'm sure willing to learn.

Y'all think too damn much.

Last edited by Jurassic Referee; Thu Dec 23, 2010 at 11:30am.
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 23, 2010, 11:41am
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,211
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1 View Post
I have to admit, that this was my thought, too. The rule specifically says "During multiple free throws resulting from personal fouls. . ." And here we have multiple free throws (due to the automatic bonus) that have resulted from a personal foul. It seems to fit the rule exactly.

Somebody convince me why it doesn't.

P.S. -- the reason I post this is because I was asked by another pretty good official who chose E in his game last night.
Another pretty good official wouldn't allow a sub to come in to shoot either the first or second free throws for the technical foul? Even though NFHS rule 8-3 specifically says that's legal? And he wouldn't allow the other 3 subs to enter at the same time?

Hmmmmmm.........

Last edited by Jurassic Referee; Thu Dec 23, 2010 at 11:46am.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Case book question: multiple fouls jritchie Basketball 5 Thu Oct 28, 2010 02:18pm
Multiple Fouls... Reffing Rev. Football 2 Sun Sep 06, 2009 11:45am
Multiple fouls bseybs32 Basketball 3 Mon Feb 09, 2004 11:27am
Multiple fouls Adam Basketball 21 Thu Feb 06, 2003 05:59pm
Multiple Fouls? gduckworth Basketball 21 Tue Jan 28, 2003 03:37am


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:36am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1