Subs with multiple fouls

[Scrapper1]

NFHS rules. False double foul. Personal foul by A1 followed by dead ball contact technical foul by B1. The personal foul results in the automatic bonus. So we're going to shoot 2 free throws at one basket and then two free throws at the other basket.

There are 3 subs at the table before the personal foul is called. Assuming none of the subs is going to attempt the free throws for the technical foul, when are these subs allowed to enter the game by rule?

A) Immediately after the two fouls are reported
B) After the first free throw for the personal foul
C) After the second free throw for the personal foul
D) Before the final (second) free throw for the technical foul
E) After all the free throws are completed

I'd appreciate any rule citation you can give for your answer. Thanks.

[Jurassic Referee]

Bring 'em in immediately. The correct answer is A. You only restrict entry on multiple free throws resulting from personal fouls, not personal and technicals. NFHS rule 3-3-1(c).

[BktBallRef]

Agreed, which means the correct answer is actually ALL OF THE ABOVE.

Subs can enter during any of these opportunities.

Whether one of the subs is going to attempt a FT for the technical makes no diference.

[JugglingReferee]

I bring 'em in (A). I don't overrule my P if he does otherwise. That's OOO imo.

Another interesting question for rookies is what are ramifications of bringing them in at one point over another point.

[Adam]

Not that I'd stop my partner from doing it, or even ask about it later, but wouldn't B be the correct answer? False double fouls are really just two separate fouls, right?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

False double foul. Personal foul by A1 followed by dead ball contact technical foul by B1. The personal foul results in the automatic bonus. So we're going to shoot 2 free throws at one basket and then two free throws at the other basket.

There are 3 subs at the table before the personal foul is called. Assuming none of the subs is going to attempt the free throws for the technical foul, when are these subs allowed to enter the game by rule?

A) Immediately after the two fouls are reported
B) After the first free throw for the personal foul
C) After the second free throw for the personal foul
D) Before the final (second) free throw for the technical foul
E) After all the free throws are completed

I'd appreciate any rule citation you can give for your answer. Thanks.

Under NCAA, I'm going with E. It's kind of like "when are players allowed along the FT lane?" If the ball might stay live, then let the players along the line and let the subs in; otherwise, no players, no subs (and, yes, I recognize the analogy doesn't hold exactly).

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Not that I'd stop my partner from doing it, or even ask about it later, but wouldn't B be the correct answer? False double fouls are really just two separate fouls, right?

I have to admit, that this was my thought, too. The rule specifically says "During multiple free throws resulting from personal fouls. . ." And here we have multiple free throws (due to the automatic bonus) that have resulted from a personal foul. It seems to fit the rule exactly.

Somebody convince me why it doesn't.

P.S. -- the reason I post this is because I was asked by another pretty good official who chose E in his game last night.

[Scrapper1]

To Rich's point, I should have clarified. . . this was a high school game. Sorry for any confusion. I'll edit the original post.

[Rob1968]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Agreed, which means the correct answer is actually ALL OF THE ABOVE.

Subs can enter during any of these opportunities.

Whether one of the subs is going to attempt a FT for the technical makes no diference.

It seems to me that part of the reasoning for allowing subs to enter after a 1st of 2 free throws is to allow the coaches to manage their personnel according to the game situation, which includes, which of their players they want on the lane for rebounding a possible missed free throw. Since the subs are ready, and there will be no available rebound, bring them in, at any of the moments listed. And keeping with this thought, after all the free throws have been attempted, if there are eliglble subs at the table, bring them in, which allows the coaches to manage the game situation that has resulted from the new game situation after the free throws.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

It seems to me that part of the reasoning for allowing subs to enter after a 1st of 2 free throws is to allow the coaches to manage their personnel according to the game situation, which includes, which of their players they want on the lane for rebounding a possible missed free throw. Since the subs are ready, and there will be no available rebound, bring them in, at any of the moments listed. And keeping with this thought, after all the free throws have been attempted, if there are eliglble subs at the table, bring them in, which allows the coaches to manage the game situation that has resulted from the new game situation after the free throws.

While all that is probably true, that's WAY over thinking it to me.

I can see B as the answer but I would have no problem with bringing them in immediately.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

P.S. -- the reason I post this is because I was asked by another pretty good official who chose E in his game last night.

If there's one thing I'm 100% sure of, it's that the answer is NOT E.

[Jurassic Referee]

Can anybody cite me an NFHS rule that will deny entry to substitutes who have met the restrictions of NFHS rule 3-3-1(d)?

NFHS 3-3-1(d)--"If entry is at any other time than between quarters, and a substitute who is entitled and ready to enter reports to the scorer, the scorer shall use a sounding device or game horn, if, or as soon as, the ball is dead and the clock is stopped."

Someone please tell me howinthehell this rule does NOT apply to the situation described in the original post? We already know the free throw restrictions outlined in 3-3-1(c) don't apply.

You have no rules justification under NFHS rules to NOT immediately bring in those subs.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

We already know the free throw restrictions outlined in 3-3-1(c) don't apply.

You may know this, JR, but "we" don't. Why don't they apply? I agree that if they don't apply, then the answer is A. But that's an "if" I'm not ready to concede yet.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

You may know this, JR, but "we" don't. Why don't they apply? I agree that if they don't apply, then the answer is A. But that's an "if" I'm not ready to concede yet.

Rule 3-3-1(c) is telling us what the substitution restrictions are for multiple free throws resulting from personal fouls. The situation described does NOT have multiple free throws resulting from personal fouls. It has multiple free throws resulting from personal and technical fouls. Therefore we can't use 3-3-1(c). It ain't applicable. If it was applicable, the rulesmakers wouldn't have specified personal fouls only. That means we have to look and see which other rule is applicable. And the only one available that is applicable is 3-3-1(d).

Rules rulz!

See if any of you can find something that states you can't bring the subs in as soon as the fouls are reported. Also see if you can find anything that states that you can't bring another legally reported sub(s) in after any one of the free throws in the sequence also. I don't know of any rule that says you can't but I'm sure willing to learn.

Y'all think too damn much.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I have to admit, that this was my thought, too. The rule specifically says "During multiple free throws resulting from personal fouls. . ." And here we have multiple free throws (due to the automatic bonus) that have resulted from a personal foul. It seems to fit the rule exactly.

Somebody convince me why it doesn't.

P.S. -- the reason I post this is because I was asked by another pretty good official who chose E in his game last night.

Another pretty good official wouldn't allow a sub to come in to shoot either the first or second free throws for the technical foul? Even though NFHS rule 8-3 specifically says that's legal? And he wouldn't allow the other 3 subs to enter at the same time?

Hmmmmmm.........