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View Poll Results: When can the subs enter?
Immediately after the fouls are reported to the table 14 45.16%
Before the final (second) free throw for the personal foul 12 38.71%
After the final free throw for the personal foul 0 0%
Before the final (second) free throw for the technical foul 0 0%
After all free throws have been attempted 5 16.13%
Voters: 31. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 23, 2010, 12:03pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee View Post
1) Naw, that's too deep for a dummy like me. I'm saying that I just try to follow a rule that I can show someone if questioned. That 3-3-1(d) in this situation.

2) Why wouldn't you? You now have left multiple free throws resulting from personal and technical fouls, not multiple free throws resulting from personal fouls only. NFHS rule 3-3-1(c) no longer is applicable and 3-3-1(d) is.
I've got multiple free throws resulting from a personal foul, followed by multiple free throws resulting from a technical foul. The word "only" isn't in 3-3-1C (at least not in my IAABO book). Methinks you're thinking too much.
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Old Thu Dec 23, 2010, 12:16pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
I've got multiple free throws resulting from a personal foul, followed by multiple free throws resulting from a technical foul. The word "only" isn't in 3-3-1C (at least not in my IAABO book). Methinks you're thinking too much.
Rules are (generally) written assuming "nothing else happens." So, if there are FTs from one PF, then subs come in before the last FT.

Nothing seems to be mentioned about T's or double fouls (what if in the OP the second foul had been a PF -- perhas B2 fouls A2 during the first FT for the PF), of false double fouls (what if the order was reversed -- dead ball T followed by PF during one of the FTs for the T -- do we still wait until the last PF FT?)
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Old Thu Dec 23, 2010, 02:44pm
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Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
(what if the order was reversed -- dead ball T followed by PF during one of the FTs for the T -- do we still wait until the last PF FT?)
First we would have a mess on our hands. A contact foul during a T FT sounds ugly.

IMO, allow subs before first T FT, before second T FT and before last PF FT.

Last edited by Scratch85; Thu Dec 23, 2010 at 02:47pm.
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Old Thu Dec 23, 2010, 12:17pm
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In case of a False Double Foul or a False Multiple Foul, each foul carries its' own penalty.

We are instructed to treat the fouls as two separate occurrences and I believe we should administer and conduct the game accordingly. IMO. that means I will have two separate and independent actions.

I choose B for the 3 subs that are at the table in OP. Another thought is, the method of bringing in subs during multiple FT's was created to prevent delays. If we chose A, we must also allow any sub that reports to the table before the ball is at the Free-thrower's disposal but after the 3 subs were beckoned, to enter the game. Here come the delays that the rule is trying to prevent.

Last edited by Scratch85; Thu Dec 23, 2010 at 12:56pm.
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Old Thu Dec 23, 2010, 01:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
I've got multiple free throws resulting from a personal foul, followed by multiple free throws resulting from a technical foul. The word "only" isn't in 3-3-1C (at least not in my IAABO book). Methinks you're thinking too much.
I agree with this point. However, if a T has been called, I'm going to let the coach remove the offending player ASAP if that is his desire.
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Old Thu Dec 23, 2010, 01:29pm
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Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
I agree with this point. However, if a T has been called, I'm going to let the coach remove the offending player ASAP if that is his desire.
I agree with this in practice.
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Old Thu Dec 23, 2010, 02:00pm
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Intent and purpose of the rule. The reason for allowing subs before the last free throw on a personal foul is to have only one pause before the ball may first be back in play, instead of two or three. That doesn't apply here.
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Old Thu Dec 23, 2010, 02:08pm
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Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
Intent and purpose of the rule. The reason for allowing subs before the last free throw on a personal foul is to have only one pause before the ball may first be back in play, instead of two or three. That doesn't apply here.
Sure it does; it cuts down on 1 of those potential pauses.
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Old Thu Dec 23, 2010, 02:10pm
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Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
Sure it does; it cuts down on 1 of those potential pauses.
So make it after all the free throws for the personal.
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Old Thu Dec 23, 2010, 02:14pm
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So make it after all the free throws for the personal.
You could, if the rule supported it. Of course, the lack of rule support doesn't mean you can't do it; it just means you can't back it up with a rule.

Personally, I'm likely going with A in practice because I prefer to get an offending player (for the T) out ASAP if his coach is trying to help me out. But the thought process for justifying it is too difficult, so if questioned on it, I'd have to fall back on game management rather than the rule.
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Old Thu Dec 23, 2010, 02:15pm
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Why does it matter? If you bring in subs before the play can continue then who cares when you bring them in? All that matters are when the last FT is taken all the appropriate subs are in the game. Before that is irrelevant. I have never really thought much about it until now. Subs can come in to shoot a T so why worry if they come in or not if they are not shooting a T?

I think this entire thread is over-thinking an irrelevant issue. All that matters is players are in the game before the last FT. Whether it is a personal foul, a technical foul or some other kind of foul is really not going to change anything in the outcome of the game.

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