I think chseagle was my timer tonight

[stiffler3492]

Originally Posted by chseagle

Due to the fact that the roster was not listed in the official scorebook, yes it was called.

Concerning the adding of the player into the scorebook, the R (at about 10 minute mark pregame), comes to table & verifies that the number of players warming up for each team match that which is in the scorebook (in the OP somehow V13 was either not counted or not within the visible confines of the court) so there was one more player in uniform than what the scorebook showed. At the time the count was done it should of been noticed about V13 missing from the scorebook, it was not. Since V13 had to be added to the scorebook when coming in to substitute according to the rules it is an administrative T.

10.1.2 SITUATION: (a) Three minutes prior to the start of the game; or (b) during a time-out in the second quarter of play, the Team B coach requests the scorer to add a name to the team list or change a team member’s number in the scorebook.
When is the penalty invoked for this administrative infraction?
RULING: The infraction occurs when the scorer is advised to add to or change the scorebook. The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live. Once the ball has become live, it is too late to penalize.

These two situations are completely different. In the case play, the coach erred. In your situation, the scorer erred. One causes a technical foul, the other causes embarrassment.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Seriously, he's gotta be putting us on.

No, going by his posting history he is that clueless. And you can't tell him anything because he just doesn't comprehend what you're telling him. Why expect anything different from him?

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Seriously, he's putting us on.

Ya know, I never considered that........

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

No, going by his posting history he is that clueless. And you can't tell him anything because he just doesn't comprehend what you're telling him. Why expect anything different from him?

THAT I considered!

[Jurassic Referee]

NFHS rule 10-1-1- "A team shall not fail to supply the scorer with the name and number of each team member who may participate...at least 10 minutes before the scheduled starting time."

NFHS rule 10-1-2(b)- "After the 10-minute time limit specified in Article 1: add a name to the team list."

Chseagle, you're looking at the wrong rule. Did the team supply the scorer with a list that included player #13 as required under R10-1-1? Yes! Did the scorer have to add a name to the team list that was given to him? No! What you want us to do is assess a penalty under rule 10-1-2(b) for a team failing to comply with rule 10-1-1. We can't do that because at no time was there a violation of rule 10-1-1. The team DID supply a correct team list that included player #13, and did so in a timely fashion. And you can't give a team a "T" for adding a name to a team list when that name was already on their team list.

The scorer screwed up, not the team. And any know-nothing timer that tries to involve themself in a situation that they simply do not understand should be banished from the kingdom.

Now......enough is enough and too much is plenty. Zip it!

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by chseagle

IOW Had to have been there to see everything unfold in person.

No you don't HTBT. BktBallRef described it all in sufficient detail.

Originally Posted by chseagle

I was asking about the Administrative T as the name had to be added to both scorebooks although it was initially supplied.

Since the name/number was added after the officials checked the rosters in both books, it would be considered an Administrative T.

"Administrative:
Providing rosters; starters; numbers; changes,
additions, etc.; team not ready to start half, TV
monitor, electronic communication; not
occupying assigned bench; more than five
players; excess time-out; violation after team
warning for delay; all players not returning at
same time after time-out or intermission (10-1)"

Just trying to figure out how it would not be considered as such since having to add the player, even though the roster was supplied.

You highlighted the wrong part. The key word is "Providing". The team complied with that.

Otherwise, an unscrupulous home scorer could "forget" to add a name or two, or mark down the wrong starters and give his/her team an advantage.

[mbyron]

I had a partner ask me last night during warmups how "strict" I was about having all the names in the book by 10 minutes. I "reminded" him that the rule does not require having all the names in the book; it requires that the team provide the scorers with a roster.

He said, "Oh, that's right."

[just another ref]

And this part cannot be overstated: Even if there is no list submitted at all, it is not any part of the timer's job to do or say anything.

[chseagle]

Like I stated it was my understanding of the rules, as I am used to the rosters having to be in the scorebook by the 10:00 minute mark, not just a printed list outside the scorebook.

It goes to show you differences in areas & training in positions.

Of course I know it's never ALWAYS going to happen for the Sub-V games where I've had my training as scorer. However I have done my share of table operations for V games & have seen it happen before & have been to enough V games as either bench personnel/security/table to have seen it happen that a player is "accidently" forgotten to be listed yet an administrative T has still been called.

As stated before I have, as has my wife, seen it called as a Technical before as not always are printed rosters correct as to names/numbers or a printed roster is not supplied to the scorer.

[BillyMac]

And it ain't even about us.

chseagle: Check out page seven of the NFHS rulebook. It doesn't have a number on it, but it's still a rule, a very important rule: "It is important to know the intent and purpose of a rule so that it may be intelligently applied in each play situation."

One intent and purpose of the "ten minute rule" is to ensure that rosters are written in the scorebooks before the game starts, so that we're not holding up the jump ball to start the game while the table is copying names, and numbers, into their respective scorebooks. Another intent and purpose is so that we don't have to hold up the game after the game starts to add a players name, and number, into the book. Officials, players, coaches, and fans want the kids play basketball, they don't want to watch scorekeepers making additions, or corrections, in the scorebook. And they certainly don't want to watch us officiating a free throw contest before clock actually starts.

I've been doing this for thirty years. Do you know how many times the book hasn't been "ready" at the ten minute mark? If I got a dollar every time it happened, I could buy a round, or two, of adult beverages after the game for all my pals. Do you know how many technical fouls I've seen charged for the book not being "ready" at the ten minute mark? None. I've officiated over 700 high school games, and, probably, three, or four times, as many lower level games. Do you know how many games I've started with something other than a jump ball? None.

As an official, you just don't want to start the game with "administrative" free throws. Officials will always bend over backwards to work with coaches, and the table crew, within the intent and purpose of the rules, to start the game with a jump ball, the way, God, and Dr. Naismith, intended it. In thirty years, I have found all head coaches, and all table crew members, to fully agree with me.

Now, would someone please help me down from this soapbox. I'm getting dizzy up here.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Start the game with a jump ball, the way, God, and Dr. Naismith, intended it.

Wait a minute? Did I really post this? Wow. Sometimes chseagle can really get me worked up. Maybe the soapbox was way too high, and the lack of oxygen at that altitude effected my brain, and confused me?

[chseagle]

Finally a constructive "non-condescending" answer/

All I have been doing is mentioning my understanding of rules & yet almost everyone that responds is trying to turn my a$$ into the grand canyon with no rhyme/reason except to exert their manhood where it does not belong.

Like stated a million times before (over-exaggerated) I am wanting to learn the proper meanings/reasonings behind the rules, yet majority of the time instead of politely explaining the proper use/meaning of the rule I am being fed to the wolves for just asking for clarifications.

Sorry to say this but almost everyone on here miserably fails as teachers as cannot calmly explain with rational thinking how/why a rule is written compared to how it is understood.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

And it's not even about us.

chseagle: Check out page seven of the NFHS rulebook. It doesn't have a number on it, but it's still a rule, a very important rule:
"Therefore, it is important to know the intent and purpose of a rule so that it may be intelligently applied in each play situation."

One intent and purpose of the "ten minute rule" is to ensure that rosters are written in the scorebooks before the game starts, so that we're not holding up the jump ball to start the game while the table is copying names, and numbers, into their respective scorebooks. Another intent and purpose is so that we don't have to hold up the game after the game starts to add a players name, and number, into the book. Officials, players, coaches, and fans want the kids play basketball, they don't want to watch scorekeepers making additions, or corrections, in the scorebook. And they certainly don't want to watch us officiating a free throw contest before clock actually starts.

I've been doing this for thirty years. Do you know how many times the book hasn't been "ready" at the ten minute mark? Dozens. Do you know how many technical fouls I've seen charged for the book not being "ready" at the ten minute mark? None. I've officiated over 700 high school games, and, probably, three, or four times, as many lower level games. Do you know how many games I've started with something other than a jump ball? None.

As an official, you just don't want to start the game with "administrative" free throws. Officials will always bend over backwards to work with coaches, and the table crew, within the intent and purpose of the rules, to start the game with a jump ball, the way, God, and Dr. Naismith, intended it. In thirty years, I have found all head coaches, and all table crew members, to fully agree with me.

Now, would someone please help me down from this soapbox. I'm getting dizzy up here.

BillyMac, your soapbox (to me) was only about 1-2 feet off the ground.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by chseagle

Generally, rosters are copied from one scorebook to another not from a roster supplied by the coach, except for that team's roster either from the coach's memory or a previous game.

As I understood the rules, the rosters are to be in the scorebook(s) by the ten minute mark in order to be supplied, not just a paper lying next to the scorebook for the scorer to copy from.

Just trying to get clarification, as I have seen it called as an administrative T before.

And we've given you clarification. Your understanding is wrong.

The coach is required to supply the scorer with the name and number of each team member who may participate. (10-1-1)

The coach did that. The fact that both scorers failed to write #13's name in their books is a bookkeeping error. Therefore, the team is NOT penalized.

[chseagle]

I'm used to the fact that 10-1-1 means all names/numbers are listed in the scorebook, as that is what I am used to is all I was getting at.

It is that I was thinking the intent & purpose is different compared to what is the norm concerning what I have witnessed/experienced.

Unfortunately different people see the purpose & intent differently

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

And we've given you clarification. Your understanding is wrong.

The coach is required to supply the scorer with the name and number of each team member who may participate. (10-1-1)

The coach did that. The fact that both scorers failed to write #13's name in their books is a bookkeeping error. Therefore, the team is NOT penalized.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by chseagle

Finally a constructive "non-condescending" answer/

All I have been doing is mentioning my understanding of rules & yet almost everyone that responds is trying to turn my a$$ into the grand canyon with no rhyme/reason except to exert their manhood where it does not belong.

Like stated a million times before (over-exaggerated) I am wanting to learn the proper meanings/reasonings behind the rules, yet majority of the time instead of politely explaining the proper use/meaning of the rule I am being fed to the wolves for just asking for clarifications.

Sorry to say this but almost everyone on here miserably fails as teachers as cannot calmly explain with rational thinking how/why a rule is written compared to how it is understood.

Maybe if you just accepted the damn answers that are being given to you by some very knowledgable officials instead of trying to argue with them when you don't have the knowledge to do so, we might have a little more patience with you. As it stands right now though, all you are doing is making yourself a big pain in our collective asses because your understanding of even the basic rules is almost non-existent.

You were given the correct meaning of this particular rule as well as the reasoning behind it. Instead of saying "thank you", instead you insisted on arguing that everybody was wrong.

It ain't a matter of us failing as teachers, chseagle. It's a case of you failing miserably as a student.

Sorry but there it is....like it or not.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by chseagle

It is that I was thinking the intent & purpose is different compared to what is the norm concerning what I have witnessed/experienced.

The intent and purpose is that the coach provide the scorer a team list prior to the 10 minute mark, not that the book be completed prior to the 10 minute mark.

Unfortunately different people see the purpose & intent differently

Fortunately, it makes no difference what a timer sees as the intent and purpose of the rule. It is not any part of the timer's job to do or say anything.