I had THAT play tonight (timer error)

[canuckrefguy]

I seem to remember a thread a few weeks or couple months ago about a timing error and a "re-do" that caused almost record amounts of disagreement....well, not sure if this is the same thing, but.......

Grade 11 Boys AAU-type ball - NCAA rules:

Team B, down by 1, takes the ball out with 0:01 on the clock. B1 throws a baseball pass to the other end, while ball is in air, horn goes off. Ball sails over all the hands and goes OOB via opposite baseline.

Coach B screaming over clock error. Coach A says game over, or at least their ball because B1's throw-in went OOB.

Opinions first, then I'll let you know what we did.

[Nevadaref]

Did the 1 second come off the clock or did the horn just sound without the clock moving?
Just curious since in your play the ball was never touched.

Anyway, it is an obvious timing error which is easy to correct since the throw-in pass went OOB untouched.

Team A's ball back down at the other end under their basket (in other words from where B1 did the throw-in) with that 1 second still on the clock.

[Edited by Nevadaref on May 31st, 2005 at 12:50 AM]

[canuckrefguy]

Clock operator (volunteer parent of team who was up by 1 ) started clock before ball was touched.

The more I think about it - the more I think this isn't like that play before that stirred up all the disagreement....

We gave the ball back, put 0:01 back on the clock. B's second throw-in was caught but no shot. Team A held on. Yawn.

[Nevadaref]

Unless the game was played in Munich, I can't agree with giving Team B a second opportunity at the throw-in.

If this play happened with 4:54 left in the first quarter, you wouldn't give them the ball back right?

[Edited by Nevadaref on May 31st, 2005 at 12:35 AM]

[canuckrefguy]

From the NCAA rulebook, Rule 2-12, Art. 15, page 53:

A.R. 33. With four seconds left on the game clock, A1 is throwing-in the ball to A2. The timer incorrectly starts the game clock before the passed ball touches or is legally touched by an inbounds player. The official recognizes the timer’s mistake and immediately blows his or
her whistle while the passed ball is in flight.

RULING: Since the timer has made a mistake, the official, with definite knowledge, shall place the correct time on the game clock. Play shall be resumed with a throw-in by Team A from the original throw-in spot.

Have I misinterpreted?

[Dribble]

Nevadaref, if you're going to give the ball to Team A, then it has to be on the same baseline as where B1 sent the errant pass since nobody touched the ball before it went OOB.

[Nevadaref]

Good rule citation, but that seems to be a different play.

In the NCAA AR, the official notices the clock starting incorrectly and immediately stops the play by sounding the whistle DURING the throw-in. Under NCAA rules, there is team control during a throw-in and the offense was not given the opportunity to finish the play, so that team is clearly entitled to keeping the possession with another throw-in opportunity. The NCAA only had to make a ruling on from where to conduct the throw-in. (Original location or the spot nearest to where the ball was when the official sounded the whistle.) They have chosen the original location.

Now in your play, you never said anything about an official blowing the whistle during the throw-in. You said that the ball went over everyone's hands and OOB. Therefore, that throw-in was completed, not interrupted as in the NCAA AR. Thus, I think your play doesn't fit within this AR.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Dribble
Nevadaref, if you're going to give the ball to Team A, then it has to be on the same baseline as where B1 sent the errant pass since nobody touched the ball before it went OOB.

I agree and that is what I intended to convey in my first post, but I can now see how you thought I meant the reverse.

I have gone back and cleaned up the language to clarify it.

[canuckrefguy]

Here's how it happened - maybe I didn't include enough detail....

B1 throws, horn goes off, I whistle, ball goes OOB.

I think we did it right....

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by canuckrefguy
Here's how it happened - maybe I didn't include enough detail....

B1 throws, horn goes off, I whistle, ball goes OOB.

I think we did it right....

In that case, yes.

[canuckrefguy]

So if the play happened so fast that the whistle after the incorrect horn happened at about the same time as the ball going OOB, it would not have been right?

I'm not sure I agree with that....

Is this where the arguing begins?

[Nevadaref]

If an official doesn't sound a whistle DURING the throw-in, I don't know of any rule that would allow the throw-in to be done a second time.

In other words, if a player touches the throw-in pass or the ball goes OOB before a whistle is blown that play must stand. You can certainly still correct the clock.

If it is close, you have to make the decision on which event happened first. While that can be a tough call, I don't think that is the crux of the big timing argument.

I believe that one is what to do if B2 catches the throw-in pass, without play being stopped by a whistle, but then doesn't have enough time to score because of a premature clock start.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
If an official doesn't sound a whistle DURING the throw-in, I don't know of any rule that would allow the throw-in to be done a second time.

In other words, if a player touches the throw-in pass or the ball goes OOB before a whistle is blown that play must stand. You can certainly still correct the clock.

If it is close, you have to make the decision on which event happened first. While that can be a tough call, I don't think that is the crux of the big timing argument.

I believe that one is what to do if B2 catches the throw-in pass, without play being stopped by a whistle, but then doesn't have enough time to score because of a premature clock start.

What rule says it can't be?

[mplagrow]

Originally posted by canuckrefguy
So if the play happened so fast that the whistle after the incorrect horn happened at about the same time as the ball going OOB, it would not have been right?

I'm not sure I agree with that....

Is this where the arguing begins?

Maybe things are different in Canada, I donno. . . If B threw the ball into play, then the horn went off, then it went OOB, I would ignore the horn. Give the ball to A at the spot the ball was thrown from (NFHS rules) with 1 second on the clock. No way B gets a free second chance.

[canuckrefguy]

Originally posted by mplagrow

Maybe things are different in Canada, I donno. . . If B threw the ball into play, then the horn went off, then it went OOB, I would ignore the horn. Give the ball to A at the spot the ball was thrown from (NFHS rules) with 1 second on the clock. No way B gets a free second chance.

Oh?

What if the other B players, who may have had a chance at catching the pass, froze at the sound of the horn going off?

What if the same play happened, only there was an inadvertent whistle instead of the horn going off? Would you give the ball back then?

What's the difference? Yes, one is a timing error, one is an official's error. Both have the same effect.

I have no qualms whatsoever about re-starting the play. The rules would seem to back me up.