7-6-6 stuff

[Scratch85]

I know that 7-6-6 is not new as far as a ruling goes, but it is new in the rule book. It has created a lot of conversation in my association. I feel pretty sure there has been a thread about this before so if so, point me towad it.

7-6-6 . . . When the ball is awardd to the wrong team , the mistake must be rectified before the throw-in ends.

Does this mean that all related activities stand? IOW, if a team fouls (throw-in does not end) the penalty is applied. Is there nothing to correct since the throw-in didn't happen?

Is it just one of those bad situations where we as officials made things bad and fairness may not apply?

[tjones1]

If during a throw-in a team fouls, that throw-in has "ended". There is a new throw-in awarded due to the foul.

[Scratch85]

Originally Posted by tjones1

If during a throw-in a team fouls, that throw-in has "ended".

I disagree (4-42-5).

Sitch: Team A is erroneously awarded the ball for a throw-in under their own basket. Team B fouls prior to the throw-in ending. Team A is not in the bonus.

According to 7-6-6 we can still rectify the mistake. Which would be to award Team B the ball for a throw-in. However, there was activity that carries a penalty that allows for Team A to be awarded the ball for a throw-in.

IMO, all activity stands. 7-6-6 doesn't mean that we must rectify the mistake before the throw-in ends, it just means we can't rectify it after the throw-in ends.

I know I'm having this argument with myself but most of my arguments are with myself. I'm just looking for comfirmation and clarity so that I can easily explain it to fellow association members.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Scratch85

I disagree (4-42-5).

Sitch: Team A is erroneously awarded the ball for a throw-in under their own basket. Team B fouls prior to the throw-in ending. Team A is not in the bonus.

According to 7-6-6 we can still rectify the mistake. Which would be to award Team B the ball for a throw-in. However, there was activity that carries a penalty that allows for Team A to be awarded the ball for a throw-in.

IMO, all activity stands. 7-6-6 doesn't mean that we must rectify the mistake before the throw-in ends, it just means we can't rectify it after the throw-in ends.

I know I'm having this argument with myself but most of my arguments are with myself. I'm just looking for comfirmation and clarity so that I can easily explain it to fellow association members.

Tanner had it right. You got 'er wrong.

See case book plays 7.6.6. The RULING says that no correction can be made for the mistake after the throw-in ends. And the COMMENT in new case book play 4.42.5 states the kicking violation ends the AP throw-in.

Very straight language. Rules rulz!

[tjchamp]

But the throw in did not end. 4-42-5 indicates the throw in ends when a.) The passed ball touches or is legally touched by another player inbounds. b.) The passed ball touches or is touched by another player out of bounds, except as in 7-5-7. or C.) The throw-in team commits a throw-in violation. None of those instances happened. Play was stopped due to a foul.

The foul happened, and we need to charge it. However, it is not clear to me which team should get the throw-in. Since we caught the mistake before the throw-in ended, it should be Team B ball (7-6-6). But since B fouled, it should be A's throw in .

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by tjchamp

But the throw in did not end. 4-42-5 indicates the throw in ends when a.) The passed ball touches or is legally touched by another player inbounds. b.) The passed ball touches or is touched by another player out of bounds, except as in 7-5-7. or C.) The throw-in team commits a throw-in violation. None of those instances happened. Play was stopped due to a foul.

The foul happened, and we need to charge it. However, it is not clear to me which team should get the throw-in. Since we caught the mistake before the throw-in ended, it should be Team B ball (7-6-6). But since B fouled, it should be A's throw in .

Take the mistake out of the equation, and how would you answer this: A1 has a throw-in due to, say, a travel violation on B. A1 is holding the ball, when A2 commits a common foul, and B is not yet in the bonus. Who gets the throw-in, and why? Does it matter if A1 had not completed the throw-in?

[tjchamp]

Separating it like that makes sense to me now.

[Scratch85]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Take the mistake out of the equation, and how would you answer this: A1 has a throw-in due to, say, a travel violation on B. A1 is holding the ball, when A2 commits a common foul, and B is not yet in the bonus. Who gets the throw-in, and why? Does it matter if A1 had not completed the throw-in?

I'll probably regret this but here goes.

I am in complete agreement with everyone about the intent of 7-6-6 and how we should apply it. But the way it is written is messing up my world.

To answer the question: "Does it matter if A1 had not completed the throw-in?" I didn't think so until they wrote 7-6-6. Now if the throw-in has not ended, I can still correct the mistake.

Here is the part I am going to regret. Even though it is not a CE as defined in 2-10 it is an error that we are able to correct if it is done within the time frame stated in 7-6-6. In the CE's there are situations where activity shall be cancelled and situations where activity shall not be nullified. I understand this is not a CE and the CE rules will not apply but there is precedent for cancelling activity that occurs during a mistake that we are allowed, by rule, to correct. Now that 7-6-6 is in the book, using specific language of when a throw-in ends, it has muddied the waters for me.

What rules would we have applied to this situation before 7-6-6 was written? Or is it just the lack of rules for this situation that would have rendered our ruling? Prior to 7-6-6 what rule allowed us to stop play, ending the throw-in and award the ball to the correct team?

[Jurassic Referee]

Upon further review, ol' JR was full of shiznit....

Case Book Play 6.4.1 SITUATION D:
It is team B's turn for the next throw-in under the alternating-possession procedure. By mistake, team A is given the throw-in. Team A...releases the ball on the alternating-possession throw-in, but before the ball is legally touched in-bounds, Team A or team B commits a foul.
RULING The alternating-possession throw-in did not end when the foul occurred. Therefore, the alternating-possession mistake is corrected and the arrow now favors team B; penalize the foul appropriately. (4-42-5; 6-4-4; 6-4-5)

Good question.

[tjones1]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Upon further review, ol' JR was full of shiznit....

Case Book Play 6.4.1 SITUATION D:
It is team B's turn for the next throw-in under the alternating-possession procedure. By mistake, team A is given the throw-in. Team A...releases the ball on the alternating-possession throw-in, but before the ball is legally touched in-bounds, Team A or team B commits a foul.
RULING The alternating-possession throw-in did not end when the foul occurred. Therefore, the alternating-possession mistake is corrected and the arrow now favors team B; penalize the foul appropriately. (4-42-5; 6-4-4; 6-4-5)

Good question.

Ok. However, as it states we are still going to penalize the foul, which results in a new throw-in. You're not going to ignore the foul and go back to correct the AP throw-in. I would say this is an exception.

I know the throw-in hasn't "ended". But, it has as it's trumped by the newly awarded throw-in due to the foul/violation.

Bottom line... don't make a mistake and give the wrong team the throw-in.

[tjchamp]

So here we go again. Should the next throw-in in that situation be an AP throw-in, or a regular throw-in due to the foul. The case play just seems to indicate the arrow gets pointed to B for use on the next AP.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Scratch85

I'll probably regret this but here goes.

I am in complete agreement with everyone about the intent of 7-6-6 and how we should apply it. But the way it is written is messing up my world.

To answer the question: "Does it matter if A1 had not completed the throw-in?" I didn't think so until they wrote 7-6-6. Now if the throw-in has not ended, I can still correct the mistake.

Here is the part I am going to regret. Even though it is not a CE as defined in 2-10 it is an error that we are able to correct if it is done within the time frame stated in 7-6-6. In the CE's there are situations where activity shall be cancelled and situations where activity shall not be nullified. I understand this is not a CE and the CE rules will not apply but there is precedent for cancelling activity that occurs during a mistake that we are allowed, by rule, to correct. Now that 7-6-6 is in the book, using specific language of when a throw-in ends, it has muddied the waters for me.

What rules would we have applied to this situation before 7-6-6 was written? Or is it just the lack of rules for this situation that would have rendered our ruling? Prior to 7-6-6 what rule allowed us to stop play, ending the throw-in and award the ball to the correct team?

You're right it is not a CE, so CE procedures would not apply. Even so, I believe the only mention of ever cancelling activity would be the result of an unmerited FT, or a FT at the wrong basket. For any other CE, all points scored, fouls, etc., woul still stand.

Since this isn't an unmerited FT specifically, or for that matter a CE in general, I don't know of any rule that would allow us to wipe off a foul after the fact. Therefore, the throw-in would be the result of the penalty from the foul, and the previous throw-in is "gone", just like it would be if the proper team had been attempting it.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by tjones1

Ok. However, as it states we are still going to penalize the foul, which results in a new throw-in. You're not going to ignore the foul and go back to correct the AP throw-in. I would say this is an exception.

I know the throw-in hasn't "ended". But, it has as it's trumped by the newly awarded throw-in due to the foul/violation.

Bottom line... don't make a mistake and give the wrong team the throw-in.

You do correct the AP throw-in mistake though at the same time you penalize the foul. The new throw-in may be for the foul, not an AP throw-in. If not, you got FT's to administer.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by tjchamp

So here we go again. Should the next throw-in in that situation be an AP throw-in, or a regular throw-in due to the foul. The case play just seems to indicate the arrow gets pointed to B for use on the next AP.

You correct the arrow AND penalize the foul. If the penalty for the foul is either a throw-in or free throws, then the corrected arrow doesn't change.

[tjones1]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You do correct the AP throw-in mistake though at the same time you penalize the foul. The new throw-in may be for the foul, not an AP throw-in. If not, you got FT's to administer.

I agree and this seems to be the exception where you can do both.

Otherwise, someone is SOL and you're moving on administering the foul accordingly.

The only real way to correct your mistake is if there was a double foul on an AP throw-in. That'd be a fun explanation.

Ahhhh, it's good to be back talking basketball again!