Ejection ...

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Because the dq'ed player is the one who has to leave. The official is required to notify the coach of the disqualification. The coach is required to replace the disqualified player. Is anything else required? If, upon notification, a sub is already standing ready to enter, it seems like a situation that will work itself out from there. Asking
"Is he for the dq'ed player?" seems likely to provoke a hostile or sarcastic response.

"Who the hell else would he be for?!"

I've always asked the question when there's a sub there, and I've never had the response you suggest. If I did, we'd be shooting an extra set of free throws.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by just another ref

"Who the hell else would he be for?!"

Whoever the hell else the coach wanted out of the game before the foul was called.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Because the dq'ed player is the one who has to leave. The official is required to notify the coach of the disqualification. The coach is required to replace the disqualified player. Is anything else required? If, upon notification, a sub is already standing ready to enter, it seems like a situation that will work itself out from there. Asking
"Is he for the dq'ed player?" seems likely to provoke a hostile or sarcastic response.

"Who the hell else would he be for?!"

Just because #11 had 5 fouls doesn't mean the sub that was ALREADY at the table is for #11.

[tref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Just because #11 had 5 fouls doesn't mean the sub that was ALREADY at the table is for #11.

Exactly! That is why it makes sense to ASK the question:

Official: "Is the sub for 11, he has 5, COACH."
Coach: "Yes" or "No"

As opposed to TELLING the coach something he most likely ALREADY knows (if you work higher level games):

Official: "11 has 5 fouls, COACH."
Coach: "You dont say!" or "Yeah, thats why my sub is sitting there genius."

In my opinion (if we are allowed to have one w/out being crucified) it shows that you are truly managing the ballgame by ASKING the question (to the COACH).

Personally, I like to ask COACHES direct questions to get short, direct answers. Going to coaches with vague statements can lead to additional conversation that increases the chances of doing paperwork.

I see some officials understood exactly what I meant, but hey, big picture officiating aint for everybody! Some of us just run up & down the court, blowing the whistle, obviously.

[tref]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Whoever the hell else the coach wanted out of the game before the foul was called.

The exceptional official can chew bubblegum & walk at the same time. He/she tries to be aware when subs are:

1. Headed to the table during live play.
2. When they are already at the table prior to the whistle.
3. When they sprint to the table after a whistle.

The game within the game!

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by tref

but hey, big picture officiating aint for everybody!

You are correct. It's not. And the ones with egos bigger than their abilities usually find that out the hard way.

As far as asking the Coach a question rather than telling the coach a player is dq'ed - fine. Go for it. It will work most of the time. When it doesn't, it will get ugly and will be a learning experience.

[rockyroad]

JAR - you cannot assume that the Coach wants that sub in for the dq'ed player. Especially if that sub is already at the table.

[just another ref]

Information must be given.

done

We must have a sub.

done

I'd just rather let the coach work out the additional details. It's never been a problem for me before.

I actually had a situation where a partner went overboard dealing with this very situation.

Coach fails to replace dq'ed player

[Adam]

He didn't go overboard, he underperformed, IMO, by not asking the coach; per the NFHS ruling which you seem to be ignoring here.

[tref]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

You are correct. It's not. And the ones with egos bigger than their abilities usually find that out the hard way.

As far as asking the Coach a question rather than telling the coach a player is dq'ed - fine. Go for it. It will work most of the time. When it doesn't, it will get ugly and will be a learning experience.

Yeah I see it every fall rockyroad, they used to walk tall & belittle others because they were good friends with such & such and got the opportunity to work NCAA ball, now they're back fighting to get the good HS games
Since that lil jab was directed at me, for the record my mindset is:
1. Game
2. Partner
3. Myself
I only throw resumes around when internet thugs belittle me.

Well, thanks for your approval sir! I feel so much better now that you've checked off on what works for me. ROTFLMAO

Isnt learning what it's all about?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by tref

Exactly! That is why it makes sense to ASK the question:

Official: "Is the sub for 11, he has 5, COACH."
Coach: "Yes" or "No"

As opposed to TELLING the coach something he most likely ALREADY knows (if you work higher level games):

Official: "11 has 5 fouls, COACH."
Coach: "You dont say!" or "Yeah, thats why my sub is sitting there genius."

In my opinion (if we are allowed to have one w/out being crucified) it shows that you are truly managing the ballgame by ASKING the question (to the COACH).

Personally, I like to ask COACHES direct questions to get short, direct answers. Going to coaches with vague statements can lead to additional conversation that increases the chances of doing paperwork.

I see some officials understood exactly what I meant, but hey, big picture officiating aint for everybody! Some of us just run up & down the court, blowing the whistle, obviously.

tref - so, help us poor, unfortunate souls who just run up and down the court, to understand the big picture of officiating as you know it.

If a coach really wants to give you a smart-a$$ comment, what makes you so sure your way avoids those? What do you do if you ask a coach if the sub is for #11, and the coach asks you back, "Who the hell do you think it's for?", or, "Oh, I don't know tref, I was thinking about putting him in for #55 to go smaller, but now I'm not so sure. What do you think I should do?" (While the assistant is talking to the rest of the team during this unofficial timeout), or, perhaps, just doesn't say anything at all, and just looks at you? How long do you look back at him? What do you say to the other coach who's asking you why it's taking longer than 20 seconds to make the replacement?

All of the above have happened either to me or to officials I know. I have no problem with communicating with coaches, but in my experience, in a situation where there could be a potential confrontation, it's best to follow the prescribed mechanics. If you follow the rules and mechanics, and something goes wrong, it's easy to see the fault would lie with the coach or player. If you do something different and outside the prescribed mechanics, and it backfires, then whose fault is it?

You still have yet to respond to our pointing out several times your comment about not needing to tell the coach anything. Was that a mis-statement on your part, or do you still feel that way? If you feel it's not appropriate to inform the coach, do you have any backup to support that position, such as a rule, case, mechanic's manual page, NFHS or NCAA statement, association handout, memo from a league or assignor, etc.?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by tref

The exceptional official can chew bubblegum & walk at the same time. He/she tries to be aware when subs are:

1. Headed to the table during live play.
2. When they are already at the table prior to the whistle.
3. When they sprint to the table after a whistle.

The game within the game!

Agreed -- and wasn't the OP where "the sub was already at the table?"

Even if it's your item 3, I confirm it (not "are you for #21?" but "you're for #21, right?")

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by tref

Since that lil jab was directed at me,

Actually it really wasn't directed at you personally....more directed at the attitude you were "displaying".

And of course learning is what it is all about. Always. And there are lots of things to learn from the discussions on this board.

And not very many people on this board really give a rat's a$$ about anyone's resume - including their own.

[tref]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

tref - so, help us poor, unfortunate souls who just run up and down the court, to understand the big picture of officiating as you know it.

Come on now, I never said THAT!

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

If a coach really wants to give you a smart-a$$ comment, what makes you so sure your way avoids those?

You know there's no absolutes or always in what we do. For me it minimizes the chances of conflict.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

What do you do if you ask a coach if the sub is for #11, and the coach asks you back, "Who the hell do you think it's for?".

Take care of business!

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

perhaps, just doesn't say anything at all, and just looks at you? How long do you look back at him?

"Jane, will you give me 20 seconds on the clock please."

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

All of the above have happened either to me or to officials I know. I have no problem with communicating with coaches, but in my experience, in a situation where there could be a potential confrontation, it's best to follow the prescribed mechanics. If you follow the rules and mechanics, and something goes wrong, it's easy to see the fault would lie with the coach or player. If you do something different and outside the prescribed mechanics, and it backfires, then whose fault is it?.?

I agree M&M! That would be the officials fault... personally, I like to have rules support for each & everything I do on the court.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

You still have yet to respond to our pointing out several times your comment about not needing to tell the coach anything. Was that a mis-statement on your part, or do you still feel that way? If you feel it's not appropriate to inform the coach, do you have any backup to support that position, such as a rule, case, mechanic's manual page, NFHS or NCAA statement, association handout, memo from a league or assignor, etc.?

Mis-statement on my part, mis-interpretation on your part, call it what you like, but I've NEVER felt that way.
My point was asking (THE COACH) vs. telling (THE COACH) is a more in-tuned to the GAME way to go on DQs with a player AT the table. AND it still satisfies our responsibilities. Maybe I'm wrong (dont have my books with me) but aren't we supposed to "notify" the HC. We can notify someone in the form of a question or a direct statement, or no?

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Agreed -- and wasn't the OP where "the sub was already at the table?"

Even if it's your item 3, I confirm it (not "are you for #21?" but "you're for #21, right?")

Yes sir, thats why its important to KNOW when/how he arrived at the table.
For the record, I dont ask sub any questions, I would ask the coach.

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Actually it really wasn't directed at you personally....more directed at the attitude you were "displaying".

And not very many people on this board really give a rat's a$$ about anyone's resume - including their own.

I can dig it!! And you are right, my attitude did turn quite sour after being picked on by the school bully & his gang. I apologize to the board for my part!! I know damn well that I shouldnt be arguing with fools... people at a distance cant tell who's who.

I cant lie, I'm proud of the accomplishments I've achieved in a such a short amount of time. I enjoy life in the fast lane!!

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

And not very many people on this board really give a rat's a$$ about anyone's resume - including their own.

Except for Rock, I have worked many games with him and at the start of every game he hands a resume to each coach. Before you know it the game is over and the coaches have just finished reading.