Ejection ...

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Paint me with a colour.

Metric spelling ???

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Case book play 2.8.4 lays out the procedure and that's exactly what we train our officials to follow. Asking extraneous questions at the table is completely irrelevant to the recommended prodecure though. Asking a sub at the table whether he's subbing in for a disqualified player is NOT notifying a coach under any stetch of the imagination.

JR, we are obviously reading tref's statement differently. Nothing in 2.8.4 states the wording that must be used, so if an official uses wording that both informs the coach of the player's fifth foul and inquires about the already waiting sub, I see nothing wrong with it. Nothing he said indicates he's talking to the sub, you're making that assumption. Nothing he said indicates he's talking to the table, you're making that assumption.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Tref said that you don't have to tell the coach that his player fouled out. His statement was "there is no reason to tell the coach".. The rules say otherwise.

I went back and re-read the first half of the thread, including tref's statement you're quoting. Frankly, I think he simply misspoke on that statement, as EVERYTHING ELSE he wrote on the topic indicates he was talking to the coach when he asked the question followed by the "he has 5" statement.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Howinthehell can you be right when tref stated very emphatically that there is no reason to let the coach know that his player just committed his fifth foul? Why would he direct it the head coach if he felt that their was no reason for the head coach to know that? Those were his exact words; i've cited 'em verbatim enough so far in this thread. He also said that he asked the question AT the table. Coachs aren't allowed to be at the table, by rule. Howinthehell can you direct a question to someone who by rule isn't supposed to be anywhere near you?

RIF!

Unfortunately, the rules state the we have to inform the coach when one of his players fouls out. That's NFHS rule 2-8-4. There is nowayinhell that asking anyone anything at the scorers table changes that responsibility.

How close do you teach your officials to get to the coach when they inform him it's 5? I'm curious, because quite a few times I've done it from a distance similar to the distance between the reporting area and the coaching box.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I went back and re-read the first half of the thread, including tref's statement you're quoting. Frankly, I think he simply misspoke on that statement, as EVERYTHING ELSE he wrote on the topic indicates he was talking to the coach when he asked the question followed by the "he has 5" statement.



How close do you teach your officials to get to the coach when they inform him it's 5? I'm curious, because quite a few times I've done it from a distance similar to the distance between the reporting area and the coaching box.

I get no closer than I need to. Often that is from the division line. I get eye contact and say verbally "#11 had 5 fouls" and I hold up the 5 fingers at the same time. I have had supervisors and observers at camps who teach that you should also confirm that any sub sent to the table is actually for the disqualified player.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I hold up the 5 fingers at the same time.

Too bad we can't just hold up one finger. Guess which one.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

For my next trick, watch me pull a rabbit out of this hat.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

We have veteran officials that brag that they haven't called a technical foul in 25 years. I can only imagine the nonsense that they put up with.

Sorry I'm late to the party: Rich, those vets don't have any trouble because they always choose games the night after you were in the gym!

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Kingsman1288

I asked where he was for that reason. It's best to not have the same official give both technicals, but sometimes it cannot be helped like in your situation. Good job handling it.

Im not a huge fan of my partner coming in to "save" me. If a coach wants to get into it with me I deal with it. If I do end up giving him a T, I do so and move away (since there is no reason to be table side anyways after the T was issued). If he insists on keeping at it he can follow me and earn that second one. But the last thing I need is my partner to come and rescue me. I am an adult, the coach is an adult and we are dealing with a game with fixed parameters.

Its not ideal for the same official to give both T's but I do not want my partner to give the second one simply because I was to afraid of how it would look.

[Kingsman1288]

Originally Posted by deecee

Im not a huge fan of my partner coming in to "save" me. If a coach wants to get into it with me I deal with it. If I do end up giving him a T, I do so and move away (since there is no reason to be table side anyways after the T was issued). If he insists on keeping at it he can follow me and earn that second one. But the last thing I need is my partner to come and rescue me. I am an adult, the coach is an adult and we are dealing with a game with fixed parameters.

Its not ideal for the same official to give both T's but I do not want my partner to give the second one simply because I was to afraid of how it would look.

I didn't mean to imply that your partner should always come in and "save" you. Sometimes it cannot be helped for an official give both T's. However, in some situations a second T can be prevented by getting away from the coach and letting your partner handle things. Not because you were "afraid" of how it would look to give both T's, but it's simply what's best for game management.

I have seen officials continue to engage a coach after giving a T just because their ego won't let their partner help them out. That is totally wrong and only makes things worse.

[fiasco]

tref,

Don't worry about Jurassic Ref.This is just his schtick. He's an old timer who gets his kicks from finding one sentence or phrase he can take out of context in order to paint you in a bad light. It's like some sort of pathetic game he likes to play to make himself feel superior.

Those of us who actually know how to look at things in context know what you were trying to say with your "no reason" comment. I like your solution.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Sorry I'm late to the party: Rich, those vets don't have any trouble because they always choose games the night after you were in the gym!

I can count the number of technical fouls I had last season on one hand. I think I had 3, although I stopped counting them years ago. Of those three, I wish I had called one earlier.

I *hate* technical fouls the same way I hate baseball ejections. It doesn't mean I won't issue them.

Back to the thread: I have always used a simple "that's 5" while holding up what is essentially a stop sign. If a sub is at the table, I'll say, "is he for 21?" If yes, on we go. If not, I start a clock. I make a serious effort to take care of this administrative business and ignore anything else that's going on at this point, which is easier if you stay a good distance from the coach (the division line lets you deal with both the table and the coach.

In this thread, we've gotten hung up on this little detail, but I don't think this subtle change in wording would've helped Billy in the OP -- the coach decided, for whatever reason, to push the envelope and there's no reason to think that in the waning moments of a 30 point blowout that the coach, who'd been quiet up to this point was going to act any different.

At this point, I probably would've not issued a technical foul, said something along the lines of "I'm sorry you feel that way," and got the hell out of there. I don't have to stand there while the coach gives me a sub. If we get to 20 seconds and there's no sub at the table, then it's an easy technical foul. With 30 seconds left in the game, the coach may want to say his piece, but I don't have to give him an audience. If this conversation started in the second quarter, well, then we'd have to deal with it, I suppose.

Of course, if this is summer ball, I'm more likely to respond in a different way. I'm talking about how I'd handle it in a game where I'm wearing long pants and the coach isn't some dad pretending to be a coach.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Back to the thread: I have always used a simple "that's 5" while holding up what is essentially a stop sign. If a sub is at the table, I'll say, "is he for 21?"

Is this really necessary? If 21 has to go out, and a sub is there, that sub is for 21. The coach is free to then send another sub if he wishes.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Is this really necessary? If 21 has to go out, and a sub is there, that sub is for 21. The coach is free to then send another sub if he wishes.

Why is that sub for the dq'ed player? The coach has an allotted amount of time to sub for the dq'ed player, and just assuming - or forcing as it seems you would do - a sub who is already at the table is for the dq'ed player set your crew up for some problems.

Follow the mechanic. Inform the coach (in a very clear manner), inform the player...if there is a sub, ask the question. If the answer is yes, bring the sub in and away we go. If the answer is no, start the time.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Why is that sub for the dq'ed player? The coach has an allotted amount of time to sub for the dq'ed player, and just assuming - or forcing as it seems you would do - a sub who is already at the table is for the dq'ed player set your crew up for some problems.

Because the dq'ed player is the one who has to leave. The official is required to notify the coach of the disqualification. The coach is required to replace the disqualified player. Is anything else required? If, upon notification, a sub is already standing ready to enter, it seems like a situation that will work itself out from there. Asking
"Is he for the dq'ed player?" seems likely to provoke a hostile or sarcastic response.

"Who the hell else would he be for?!"

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I can count the number of technical fouls I had last season on one hand. I think I had 3, although I stopped counting them years ago. Of those three, I wish I had called one earlier.

I *hate* technical fouls the same way I hate baseball ejections. It doesn't mean I won't issue them.

Back to the thread: I have always used a simple "that's 5" while holding up what is essentially a stop sign. If a sub is at the table, I'll say, "is he for 21?" If yes, on we go. If not, I start a clock. I make a serious effort to take care of this administrative business and ignore anything else that's going on at this point, which is easier if you stay a good distance from the coach (the division line lets you deal with both the table and the coach.

In this thread, we've gotten hung up on this little detail, but I don't think this subtle change in wording would've helped Billy in the OP -- the coach decided, for whatever reason, to push the envelope and there's no reason to think that in the waning moments of a 30 point blowout that the coach, who'd been quiet up to this point was going to act any different.

At this point, I probably would've not issued a technical foul, said something along the lines of "I'm sorry you feel that way," and got the hell out of there. I don't have to stand there while the coach gives me a sub. If we get to 20 seconds and there's no sub at the table, then it's an easy technical foul. With 30 seconds left in the game, the coach may want to say his piece, but I don't have to give him an audience. If this conversation started in the second quarter, well, then we'd have to deal with it, I suppose.

Of course, if this is summer ball, I'm more likely to respond in a different way. I'm talking about how I'd handle it in a game where I'm wearing long pants and the coach isn't some dad pretending to be a coach.

+1. Exactly how I do it.