Ejection ...

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

I totally disagree with your "with only :45 left" philosophy. If a coach wants a technical foul give him one, and it seems by all accounts he wanted one. You told him enough and gave him the stop sign and he ran right through it. Then he didn't stop after the first technical foul so the second one was warranted. I am not going to let a coach "own" the last minute of a game just because I don't want to do some paperwork or make the game last an extra 5 minutes. You launch him, he sits next game and hopefully this knucklehead gets a clue.

Nowhere in the OP was it mentioned that the HC was belligerent, yelling, screaming, persistent, personal, profane, etc.

A coach who wants a T would not wait until 0:45 left in a 30-point blowout.

I don't see at how this HC wanted a T. He wanted a foul on Red. That's it. If I said anything, I would have said "Understood coach." Trust me, that would have satisfied him. Then nothing more comes of the situation.

I think that using the stop sign, you created more paperwork for yourself. If you think that a coach "owned" the last minute of a 30-point blowout because he finally spoke up and said that Red committed a foul first, then you need thicker skin.

[zeedonk]

As I am now moving into my 4th season, I have had the "help or don't help" your partner post-T come up a few times, mainly in 3 whistle.

First of all, I hope I can recognize the veteran partner who can handle a game... and if he whacks a coach, I am not immediately coming over to bail him out. I will simply watch and if things get worse, I will come over and try to stay in my partner's line of vision to see if he gives me the "I got it" sign, at which point I will go somewhere else and begin to gather players and ID a shooter for the free throws.

Of course, we don't always get to pregame during the off season, and I am sure that a school game during the season will have this as part of our pregame.

I just think it looks bad if the partner of an obviously experienced (and capable) official comes running to the rescue because the mechanic says to come get your partner away from the coach... chances are, the vet will take care of business, spin on his heel and begin to move away-- which is my signal to come finish up over there and get things moving again... If he's still there and things are not getting worse, I'm not coming to get him.

If the crew is all about the same experience level, I'll move a little quicker, but again, I'm going to see how my partner handles it. If it's me doing the whacking, I don't run immediately away, but I don't sit and wait for conversation either. Whack, report, turn and begin moving away

Z

[Back In The Saddle]

I'm with the Juggler on this one. 0:45 left in the game, coach hasn't been a problem all game? An "I'll watch that, Coach" should be sufficient to handle the situation.

But there are no magic bullets and if the coach is tired, cranky and really just needs his wittle blankee and a nap, he may well have continued on like he did. You may still have had to toss him. But if were me, I'd feel better about the situation if my first response had been more neutral.

Just my $0.02

[Raymond]

Billy, I'm with Juggs and BITS on this one. In that particular scenario I would not have said "that's enough coach". I think an "I hear you" or "you may be right" or something to that effect would have fit better for this particular situation.

I have no problem with tossing the coach at any point in the game if he earned it.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Nowhere in the OP was it mentioned that the HC was belligerent, yelling, screaming, persistent, personal, profane, etc.

A coach who wants a T would not wait until 0:45 left in a 30-point blowout.

I don't see at how this HC wanted a T. He wanted a foul on Red. That's it. If I said anything, I would have said "Understood coach." Trust me, that would have satisfied him. Then nothing more comes of the situation.

I think that using the stop sign, you created more paperwork for yourself. If you think that a coach "owned" the last minute of a 30-point blowout because he finally spoke up and said that Red committed a foul first, then you need thicker skin.

+1

IMO, the only way the stop sign works is if the coaches are well versed in its use. What you did was use it on a Dad who's probably seen his son use it a few times; how well do you think he took it?

It's not a universal stop sign, it's a universal "whatever" sign that happens to be used in some areas as a warning in a basketball game. Guess which one Dad sees when you use it?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I have a very long fuse when it comes to coaches. Maybe a couple of technical fouls each season, only one ejection that I can recall in twenty-nine years. I've been to the rodeo a few times, the coaches know me, and seem to respect me. Maybe my gray hair makes me seem wiser than my years.

Last night. Nutmeg Games. Our Connecticut "Olympic-style" summer sports festival. High school age game. First game was in the secondary gym, ended on time. Walked up to the primary gym for our second game to see that they were fifteen minutes behind schedule. My partner and I watched in horror as the game before ours went into two overtimes.

Finally start our 8:00 p.m. game at around 9:00 p.m. Nice game. The Red Team is a step faster, and an inch taller, than the White Team. The Red Team moves out to a comfortable lead early in the game. Neither coach is complaining about calls. The Red coach is standing and coaching in his coaching box the entire game. The White coach is just sitting on his bench sending subs in and out of the game. Kids are reacting well to our calls and noncalls. No problems with game management until there's only forty-five seconds left in the game.

Foul on White 11. I report it to the table. Table informs me that it is 11's fifth foul. I inform White coach that 11 has five fouls. White Coach informs me that he already knows and has a sub available at the table and adds that we should have called a foul on Red previous to 11's foul. I simply state "That's enough coach", while giving a non-threatening "stop sign". In twenty-nine years this technique has worked for me 99.5% of the time.

Not this time. He continues that my partner and I have been doing a lousy job all night. Keep in mind that up until this point he hasn't said a single word to me or my partner. He's down 30 points with 45 seconds to go in the game. I guess he didn't understand what "enough" meant, so I charge him with a technical foul, figuring that it will shut him up.

I figured wrong. He continues to complain about the officiating in general, and the technical foul specifically. Will not shut up. So I charge him with his second technical foul, at which point he sits down, unaware that the second technical is an automatic ejection. I ask him to leave the gym, which he does so begrudgingly. Now he can't coach his kids in the next game.

45 seconds left. 30 point game. 100% easy game up until that point. What got into this guy's head? On the way home, at 10:30 p.m., I'm thinking about my ejection report that I have to phone into my assistant assigner. At that point I realize that this coach never swore, at me, or my partner, and, in fact, never even called either of us a name.

Has anyone ever had a game get so bad, so quick? As anybody ever ejected a coach who simply kept complaining after being asked to stop.

Now I have to figure out how I'm going to spend the $24.00 that I took home from this game. I better not spend it all in one place. I've got three more games on Thursday night, and two games on Saturday night. Then, maybe, I'll have enough money to buy that Corvette?

Billy:

The only thing that I might suggest that you could have done differently is that with only 45 seconds left in a blowout is to just ingnore W-HC's first comment and get the ball back into play. I know I can't believe that I am giving this particular type of advice, but any response from you, while non-threatening and non-baiting, was like adding gasoline to a fire as far as W-HC was concerned.

MTD, Sr.

[tref]

Billy if I recall correctly, you're an IAABO official, right?
Don't you guys practice getting with a partner on Ts before taking it to the table?

In addition to not getting procedures wrong, I think it helps get us away from the coach. And if they continue as in your sitch, now your partner gets to toss him.

As others have mentioned, I think your response may have fueled the fire.
When a team is getting smashed & coach wants to spout off at the end of the game, I generally go with "I hear you, coach" as opposed to "that's enough, coach." JMO

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by tref

I generally go with "I hear you, coach" as opposed to "that's enough, coach." JMO

Point taken. I would sure go this route if I could have a do-over. But it just happened so damn fast, and it was totally unexpected.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

White Coach informs me that he already knows and has a sub available at the table and adds that we should have called a foul on Red previous to 11's foul. I simply state "That's enough coach", while giving a non-threatening "stop sign". In twenty-nine years this technique has worked for me 99.5% of the time.

Not this time. He continues that my partner and I have been doing a lousy job all night.

The coach complained. The official gives a simple, non-confrontational warning about continuing the complaining. The coach then completely ignores that warning and continues to complain.

And then some people complain that you acted hastily. To them I say "whatinthehell do you people want Billy to do in a situation like that?" How many warnings should a coach get before we do something about it? How many warning do you think should be given before you'll actually do something about them? Why warn in the first place if you have no intention of following up with that warning?

Righteous "T", Billy. The coach left you no choice by ignoring your warning. All you did was react to what the coach did, and the coach really left you no choice imo. And it doesn't matter either if it's in the last 5 seconds of the game or the first 5 seconds of the game. You penalize the act! Period!

Some officials can always find a reason NOT to call a technical foul.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by tref

When a team is getting smashed & coach wants to spout off at the end of the game, I generally go with "I hear you, coach" as opposed to "that's enough, coach." JMO

And if the coach continues to complain after you tell him "I hear you, coach"...as the coach in Billy's sitch did....what then do you and the others do next? Warn him again? Ignore him?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Nowhere in the OP was it mentioned that the HC was belligerent, yelling, screaming, persistent, personal, profane, etc.

Telling an official that he and his partner had done a lousy job all night ISN'T personal?

That startement is derogatory and demeaning. Every official sets their own limits, but I personally will never let a coach get away with a comment like that.

[tref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Some officials can always find a reason NOT to call a technical foul.

Absolutely, and some officials dont have the communication skills or common sense to handle the issue before it gets to the warning &/or T stage.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And if the coach continues to complain after you tell him "I hear you, coach"...as the coach in Billy's sitch did....what then do you and the others do next? Warn him again? Ignore him?

Then I'd say "coach that's enough" communicate that to my partners & that will serve as his 1 and only official warning.

BTW "I hear you, coach" isnt an official warning in these parts!
I dont ignore coaches... I'm giving a verbal or non-verbal answer, they just want to know if we hear them, most times.

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by tref

When a team is getting smashed & coach wants to spout off at the end of the game, I generally go with "I hear you, coach" as opposed to "that's enough, coach." JMO

I agree with the Jurassic one on this. Especially with 45 seconds to go. Don't give the guy a free pass on a parting shot where he said that he thought the crew did a poor job all night. He is expecting to get away with it BECAUSE he is down 30.

Most coaches are smart enough not to use one of those magic words when they complain.

[tref]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

Don't give the guy a free pass on a parting shot where he said that he thought the crew did a poor job all night. He is expecting to get away with it BECAUSE he is down 30.

If I'm not mistaken, the coach made that comment AFTER receiving his initial T.
I didn't even comment on the second one. I only spoke on the first verbal exchange where Billy said 'that's enough coach" while giving the stop sign.

IMO there are going to be some very long nights & excess paperwork if we give a stop sign to every coach that questions a call only once.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And if the coach continues to complain after you tell him "I hear you, coach"...as the coach in Billy's sitch did....what then do you and the others do next? Warn him again? Ignore him?

There is a difference between (i) "I hear you, coach" with no stop sign signal and (ii) "That's enough coach" with a stop sign.

IF the head coach were to continue after the official saying "I hear you, coach", THEN appropriate action would be taken by the official.

The sign of a fantastic official is to diffuse a situation so that it doesn't blow up. There was no opportunity of that happening in the OP.

There's a quote in Canadian football that goes like this: "the official who, through the influence of his presence, causes players to avoid rule violations has attained the perfect relationship to the game."

Certainly the quote applies to coaches as well. And there's no reason it doesn't apply to basketball as well, including basketball coaches.

The official's presence is in what he says, how he says, and his body language of how he expects the game to proceed.