Ejection ...

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by tref

(In my best Archie Bunker voice) Jeeeezzzz!!

Umm NO, sorry, never said THAT!
What I did say, in plain english mind you, was,
ie: "Is the sub for 11, he has 5."
Does that not fulfill our responsiblities??

I never said Billy did anything incorrect, excuse me if I'm wrong, but I thought we were in the business of improving day to day by thinking things through AFTER the game. Like, how could I have handled this better??

Ok, I wasn't entirely clear you were talking to the coach, rather than the table.

As far as what Billy said, I still see absolutely nothing wrong with what he told the coach. He certainly didn't say, "Hey, coach, #11's an idiot and needs to come out and sit next to the other idiots on the bench." In other words, I don't see where he said anything that could be construed as confrontational or demeaning, but rather professional and straight-to-the-point.

Sometimes something happens in the game that is totally outside our control, no matter what we do. Perhaps the coach was upset with a player not running a play correctly (for the 5th time that game), and it's the son of the school board president, which is why he took it out on Billy instead of the kid. Since the coach was a parent or volunteer, that person probably didn't understand the meaning of sportsmanship, and decided he wanted to "show the players he had their back"? Who cares if the stop sign sign didn't work? No matter what, the coach was wrong in their actions, and Billy did what was necessary. It wasn't Billy's fault the coach didn't understand the limits, and it's not our job to inform them or handle them any differently than if it was an actual coach.

It would be nice if there was some magic formula of words and actions that work every time to keep all our games under control. Unfortunately, there aren't, so it's best if we stick with the prescribed mechanics and rules.

[tref]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

It would be nice if there was some magic formula of words and actions that work every time to keep all our games under control. Unfortunately, there aren't, so it's best if we stick with the prescribed mechanics and rules.

Concur! In addition to prescribed mechanics & rules, common sense!

Let me go s l o w so nobody gets confused or misconstrue what I'm saying

1. I report the foul to the table

2. They inform me that its the 5th.

3. Im AT the table & see a sub there... no reason to let the coach know its the 5th. Thats why the sub is there!! Asking if the sub is for the player w/ 5 makes more sense to me.

4. It eliminates the coach saying:
"I already KNOW & there is a SUB at the table" which really means "Thats why theres a guy at the table, you idiot! And since you're an idiot let me tell you about that foul on THEM before you decided to blow your whistle."

Which was my point about asking a coach "full or 30" late in the game when they havent had a 30 since before halftime. Ever hear the smartass comments they make in those situations, especially if theyre losing??

It only took me 1 time to learn to pay attention to all the details of the game within the game & utilize the table crew to assist. I asked a coach that a few years back & he flipped on me, "We used (2) 30s in the 1st frickin Q, what game are you working?"
Now my table informs the crew when a team is out of a particular t/o.

Personally, I like to reflect on situations where I get pushback & think about:
1. What caused it?
2. How I could've handled it better?
3. What will I do different next time it happens?

But as you said sometimes sh!t is just gonna happen.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by tref

1) My point was, if a team is getting hammered & they have a player foul out in a EOG situation & we go tell the coach something (11 has 5 fouls) that he has already taken care of... he gets to chirp about a call he thinks he should've got!

2) I hear you, coach instead of that's enough coach w/stop sign could've minimized the chances of Ts being thrown... especially when he hadn't said a word all game. OR maybe not, but putting ourselves in the best position to difuse situations as opposed to pouring gasoline on it is always better. Wouldn't ya say?

1) Why does any coach get to chirp about a call that he thinks he should've got? The rules explicitly say that he doesn't have the right to do that. I know there's real life, but coaches whining sureashell isn't a God-given right. He might get to chirp but I also get to tell him to stop his damn chirping.

2) And you're still missing my point. I really don't care what approach you take with the coach after his initial complaint. Personally, I have no problem with a warning but if you want to try something different than a warning and it works for you, hey, obviously your way is fine also. But if you do warn as Billy did in the original post, then I strongly believe that Billy had no choice but to do what he had to do dependant on subsequent events. All Billy did was react to the coach's refusal to shut up.

And to be quite honest, I also personally believe from a whole bunch of experience that saying "I hear you" wouldn't have changed anything in a situation like this. The coach had already made up his mind that he was going to get his complaints on the record and he really could care less at this point what you were saying to him. He's not really listening to you anyway. Either way, he's either going to make the complaint once to you and drop it or he's going to run with it and see how you react. He chose door #2 in this case and he went out that door because of his choice.

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by tref

Concur! In addition to prescribed mechanics & rules, common sense!

Let me go s l o w so nobody gets confused or misconstrue what I'm saying

1. I report the foul to the table

2. They inform me that its the 5th.

2a. I follow the prescribed mechanic and tell my partner that #11 has committed thier 5th foul.
2b. My partner informs coach of the 5th foul.

3. Im AT the table & see a sub there... no reason to let the coach know its the 5th. Thats why the sub is there!! Asking if the sub is for the player w/ 5 makes more sense to me.

4. It eliminates the coach saying:
"I already KNOW & there is a SUB at the table" which really means "Thats why theres a guy at the table, you idiot! And since you're an idiot let me tell you about that foul on THEM before you decided to blow your whistle."

Which was my point about asking a coach "full or 30" late in the game when they havent had a 30 since before halftime. Ever hear the smartass comments they make in those situations, especially if theyre losing??

It only took me 1 time to learn to pay attention to all the details of the game within the game & utilize the table crew to assist. I asked a coach that a few years back & he flipped on me, "We used (2) 30s in the 1st frickin Q, what game are you working?"
Now my table informs the crew when a team is out of a particular t/o.

Personally, I like to reflect on situations where I get pushback & think about:
1. What caused it?
Ans. Not using the NFHS mechanic.

2. How I could've handled it better?
Ans. Use the NFHS mechanic

3. What will I do different next time it happens?
Ans. Use the NFHS mechanic

But as you said sometimes sh!t is just gonna happen.

Follow the mechanics

[tref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) Why does any coach get to chirp about a call that he thinks he should've got? The rules explicitly say that he doesn't have the right to do that. I know there's real life, but coaches whining sureashell isn't a God-given right. He might get to chirp but I also get to tell him to stop his damn chirping..

Absolutely!

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

2) And you're still missing my point. I really don't care what approach you take with the coach after his initial complaint. Personally, I have no problem with a warning but if you want to try something different than a warning and it works for you, hey, obviously your way is fine also. But if you do warn as Billy did in the original post, then I strongly believe that Billy had no choice but to do what he had to do dependant on subsequent events. All Billy did was react to the coach's refusal to shut up.

And to be quite honest, I also personally believe from a whole bunch of experience that saying "I hear you" wouldn't have changed anything in a situation like this. The coach had already made up his mind that he was going to get his complaints on the record and he really could care less at this point what you were saying to him. He's not really listening to you anyway. Either way, he's either going to make the complaint once to you and drop it or he's going to run with it and see how you react. He chose door #2 in this case and he went out that door because of his choice.

Point taken JR! With 45 seconds left & coach on his best behavior throughout the contest I'll choose to go with one of the following:
1. Ignore his whining STATEMENT
2. Nod yes.
3. I hear ya, coach
4. Hell, I might even stroke his ego & say, "You're right coach, I must've missed it. Will you send me the tape?"

Hahaha who gives a damn, its Miller time in 45 seconds...

Also, I believe the exceptional official responds vs. reacting to situations.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by tref

Concur! In addition to prescribed mechanics & rules, common sense!

Let me go s l o w so nobody gets confused or misconstrue what I'm saying

3. Im AT the table & see a sub there... no reason to let the coach know its the 5th. .

Let me go slow also so that you don't misconstrue what I'm saying.

There is a damn good reason to let the coach know that his player just committed his fifth foul. And that reason is that the prescribed mechanics and rules tell you that it's the correct procedure to follow. M&M already gave you the rule that backs that up. Imo your version of "common sense" is telling you to ignore the prescribed rule and mechanic in order to keep away from the coach in case he might complain to you. That ain't game management; that's just making up an excuse to avoid a possible confrontation.

Just do your job and take care of what comes up. If something happens, deal with it.

As usual, jmo.

[tref]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

2a. I follow the prescribed mechanic and tell my partner that #11 has committed thier 5th foul.
2b. My partner informs coach of the 5th foul.

Follow the mechanics

That's not applicable 'round here Only the cowardly wants their partner to finish their business

And even though I'm on my rules, I'm not a rulebook official! Its a people business & that aint taught in no rulebook... gotta be born with it OR learn to do it.

[tref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Just do your job and take care of what comes up. If something happens, deal with it.

As usual, jmo.

ie: "Is the sub for 11, he has 5."

Does that not fulfill our responsiblities??

Never seen so many people, in one place at one time with such a lack of reading comprehension skills. And to think some of you are decision makers

[Welpe]

Now this is getting interesting.

[Kingsman1288]

Originally Posted by tref

ie: "Is the sub for 11, he has 5."

Does that not fulfill our responsiblities??

Never seen so many people, in one place at one time with such a lack of reading comprehension skills. And to think some of you are decision makers

You still need to inform the coach that 11 has 5 fouls. While the sub may well be for 11, the coach may not be aware he has 5 fouls. Later on in the game he may try to insert 11 back into the game not knowing he has 5 fouls, and when 11 is not allowed back in because of his fouling out, the coach is going to be even more mad that you didn't let him know his player had 5. That will probably lead to a bigger confrontation than the one you're trying to avoid with him fouling out. Suck it up, and just tell the coach he has 5. JMO

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by tref

That's not applicable 'round here Only the cowardly wants their partner to finish their business

And even though I'm on my rules, I'm not a rulebook official! Its a people business & that aint taught in no rulebook... gotta be born with it OR learn to do it.

While it may be customary to finish what you started in your back yard, which I am fine with, the situation might not have evolved into an ejection by using the recommended mechanic.

I know of assignors that would go back to the official and asked why the mechanic was not followed, there is a reason for them. But you are not a Rule Book official, yet you know the rules ...

The OP was looking for viable options, and this is just one.

Yes, officiating is a people business, there are just a lot of stoopid people...they are called coaches

[tref]

Originally Posted by Kingsman1288

You still need to inform the coach that 11 has 5 fouls.

"Is the sub for 11, he has 5."

Originally Posted by Kingsman1288

While the sub may well be for 11, the coach may not be aware he has 5 fouls.

Why not? Does he not understand English? Am I doing a FIBA game? Jeeezzz

"Is the sub for 11, he has 5."

Originally Posted by Kingsman1288

Later on in the game he may try to insert 11 back into the game not knowing he has 5 fouls, and when 11 is not allowed back in because of his fouling out, the coach is going to be even more mad that you didn't let him know his player had 5. That will probably lead to a bigger confrontation than the one you're trying to avoid with him fouling out. Suck it up, and just tell the coach he has 5. JMO

Yeah okay... he brings that player back AFTER I tell him he has 5 & it becomes all too easy! WHACK!
BTW, nowadays the player would tell the coach he is not going back in the game with 20 seconds left down by 30+ :-)

Originally Posted by icallfouls

While it may be customary to finish what you started in your back yard, which I am fine with, the situation might not have evolved into an ejection by using the recommended mechanic.

I know of assignors that would go back to the official and asked why the mechanic was not followed, there is a reason for them. But you are not a Rule Book official, yet you know the rules ...

For the last time, we dont get together on players fouling out! Only atypical situations.


Hmmmm I guess this is what the Twilight Zone feels like?

[Adam]

With a 5th foul, we typically pregame that the calling official will inform the coach, as he's already there at the table. If he senses pending issues, he can absolutely hand it off to a partner and switch.
It sounds like, in Billy's game, I would have informed him as the calling official as the coach had presumably been a peach all game. I also would have likely ignored the "you missed a foul" comment, assuming it's the first such comment all game.
However, if I warned him (always possible depending on many unknown variables), the T has to follow if he ignores the warning. Otherwise, you can be sure any coaches watching (and paying attention) will start working me at tip-off when I have their game.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Kingsman1288

From what you wrote, it sounds like you're talking to the table and trying to avoid the coach because of a little chirp he might make. As I said earlier, if you don't explicitly tell the coach the player has 5, that little chirp will turn into a big chirp soon.

I disagree, that statement is obviously directed towards the coach or it doesn't make any sense.
The table just told you it's five, so why would you tell the table the same thing? Personally, I normally ask the same question tref does here. You're fulfilling the responsibility while letting the coach know that you're paying attention. At the same time, coaches don't typically get snippy if I do it the other way; they just point to their sub and we move on.

[Kingsman1288]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I disagree, that statement is obviously directed towards the coach or it doesn't make any sense.

You're right, just went back and re-read it again. My mistake