This past weekend in Vegas

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

This line is the exact reason why the assigner needs to decide how many games in a day: "The official needs to decide when they believe they can not give the effort required." Guys will walk up and down the court for the $$$ if we let them.

I'm not going to disagree, but I was referring more to a person like me, who knows his limits and won't try to exceed them, as opposed to someone possibly in the "making as much $ as they can and not caring about their performance mode."

But, I do not agree with an arbirtary number - such as four games. A 20-25 yr old may be able to do more, and someone 55-60, maybe not so much.

If an evaluator/assignor reviews every official and knows their limits, then they could/should assign accordingly. I just don't see that in my neck of the woods, and restrict myself based on my abilities.

[CoachCER]

Originally Posted by grunewar

I'm not going to disagree, but I was referring more to a person like me, who knows his limits and won't try to exceed them, as opposed to someone possibly in the "making as much $ as they can and not caring about their performance mode."

But, I do not agree with an arbirtary number - such as four games. A 20-25 yr old may be able to do more, and someone 55-60, maybe not so much.

If an evaluator/assignor reviews every official and knows their limits, then they could/should assign accordingly. I just don't see that in my neck of the woods, and restrict myself based on my abilities.

I agree that most of the younger guys can do okay with 4+, but in general, I think 4 is a decent cut-off for many.

When I coached AAU, there was nothing more frustrating than having the last Saturday game and getting someone who had worked 7 games that day. I frequently saw guys who I generally thought were very strong officials spit the bit after so many games. I also know that not all of them did it for the money, and instead were bailing out the assignor and replacing no shows, in which case all you can do is thank them for doing their best.

I used to 6-7 kids games (5th-6th grade) a day in my younger days, and I think I pulled it off okay, although I don't think I was nearly as sharp later in the day. I much preferred 4-5, but our group was small and I did what I was assigned.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by CoachCER

I agree that most of the younger guys can do okay with 4+, but in general, I think 4 is a decent cut-off for many.

When I coached AAU, there was nothing more frustrating than having the last Saturday game and getting someone who had worked 7 games that day. I frequently saw guys who I generally thought were very strong officials spit the bit after so many games. I also know that not all of them did it for the money, and instead were bailing out the assignor and replacing no shows, in which case all you can do is thank them for doing their best.

Astute points delivered in a classy manner. Many tournaments simply don't have enough officials. This next post explains why.

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Perhaps the officials aren't paid enough per game (I have no knowledge of LV basketball, so I'm not specifically referring to it -- rather any sport where I have to stay in a hotel to work the games). I know that if I'm going to *go* someplace to officiate, it had better pay for all my expenses (hotel, meals) at a minimum. If it takes 8 games to do that, I'll probably work the 8 games.

If I'm told I'm only going to work 2 games a day and the pay is $20 a game, why would I want to work *at all*?

Rich points out that most summer tournaments don't want to pay enough for the officials. That's true. The Vegas pay was $30 for 3-man games and $35 for 2-man the last time that I was there. Now understand that these games are the full 32 minutes (whether played in 2 halves or 4 quarters) and the clock stops on all whistles. They are not running clock. So why is the game fee not closer to the regular season HS fee of $50 for 3-man and $60 for 2-man? My personal opinion is that this summer pay is too low. The tournament organizers and the assignors have to negotiate a better deal for the officials. Right now the out-of-town officials pay for their own lodging, transportation, and meals. If the tournament picked up some of that, then I would agree with the lower game fee.

We all know that if the pay was higher, then the event would be able to attract more officials. That would allow for assignors to limit people to 4-5 games per day instead of 7+. But as the saying goes, you get what you pay for. If the event wants to pay a low fee, then mostly it will be the low quality officials who will show up and desire to work a bunch of games.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Rich points out that most summer tournaments don't want to pay enough for the officials. That's true. The Vegas pay was $30 for 3-man games and $35 for 2-man the last time that I was there. Now understand that these games are the full 32 minutes (whether played in 2 halves or 4 quarters) and the clock stops on all whistles. They are not running clock. So why is the game fee not closer to the regular season HS fee of $50 for 3-man and $60 for 2-man? My personal opinion is that this summer pay is too low. The tournament organizers and the assignors have to negotiate a better deal for the officials. Right now the out-of-town officials pay for their own lodging, transportation, and meals. If the tournament picked up some of that, then I would agree with the lower game fee.

We all know that if the pay was higher, then the event would be able to attract more officials. That would allow for assignors to limit people to 4-5 games per day instead of 7+. But as the saying goes, you get what you pay for. If the event wants to pay a low fee, then mostly it will be the low quality officials who will show up and desire to work a bunch of games.

I did a camp a few weeks ago where I busted tail for 13 full games over the course of a weekend. This was *with* running clocks. This was more basketball than I'm willing to work normally when I'm *getting* paid. I made it physically -- I was mentally tired at the end of the weekend.

If I was paid $50/game, I'd be happy working 3 games a day and spending the rest of the day enjoying myself. At $30 a game, it's hard paying for a hotel room at a decent hotel (I don't consider sharing a room with a bunch of other officials or staying in a flophouse attractive alternatives).

Paying officials $30 for stop-clock games? As Nevada says, you get what you pay for. I wouldn't leave the house for $30 a game, let alone travel to a place where I have to pay for a hotel, transportation, meals, and take vacation time.

What I find funny are people that expect champagne officials on a beer budget.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

What I find funny are people that expect champagne officials on a beer budget.

In my experience, they don't think about what they're likely to get for $30. A related issue is that they're not skilled at distinguishing good from bad officials.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by mbyron

In my experience, they don't think about what they're likely to get for $30. A related issue is that they're not skilled at distinguishing good from bad officials.

I'm sure Tommy is. However, expecting guys to bust hump all out for $30 for 8 games is, quite frankly, unrealistic. Likewise, expecting people to say, "Sorry, but I just can't physically do more than three games without slowing down a bit" and being happy with $90 when there's a hotel bill involved is equally unrealistic.

I do a few rec games, usually a week or two before I go to a camp. But they're local and I'm doing it more for me knocking the rust off than to make money. Cause for the $25 or $30 they're paying a game, if it wasn't for the "knocking the rust off" I wouldn't even leave the house.

Amazingly enough, we work time limited baseball that pays $45 a game and we're working to get that increased next season (unless I do 3-4 of those I don't leave the house, either). And that stuff doesn't involve us running up and down a court all day.

[Zoochy]

Originally Posted by mbyron

In my experience, they don't think about what they're likely to get for $30. A related issue is that they're not skilled at distinguishing good from bad officials.

$30 a game
I've done league/tournaments for $20 and $22 a game.
A good tournament/league will pay out $25 a game.

[tomegun]

Let me fill in some blanks.

Keep in mind, first people blamed 9/11 for everything and now it is the economy.

Game fees (all two-man): $28, $25, $22.50 (I know)
Lodging: Palace station $29/night weekdays, $49/night weekends (I think this is right)

This year was the first year a camp was held the first two days of the tournament. Many of those officials stuck around and worked games for pay.

With so many sites, there were officials who slipped through the cracks and I didn't know they were in over their heads until I got a call about them. It will not be as easy for officials to work games next year - I have to know I can count on officials being on time and being able to handle the games.

I moved away for a few years and when I came back my goal was to come close to breaking even. I was able to stay with a friend, but I paid for a rental. Some of these officials are out of work and wanted to make some money. While I feel for them, I will have a standard amount of games, with a rest period in between, for all officials from out of town. I'm thinking it would be 3/rest/3. I did have 3 officials from Colorado who only wanted 3 games a day. I guess they wanted to enjoy themselves after that.

I think this is way too low, but we have to realize we are the last thing these tournament directors think about - the scum at the bottom of the barrel.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by grunewar

A 20-25 yr old may be able to do more, and someone 55-60, maybe not so much.

If age is your criteria, then I can do about one quarter.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

If age is your criteria, then I can do about one quarter.

I believe I used enough "maybe's" in there to qualify my statement as an example and not the only factor. Besides, we all know you can do at least a half!

Me on the other hand....maybe not so much!

[Johnny Ringo]

The Las Vegas summer tournaments have become a place where many below average refs come to town and whore themselves out and work way too many games.

Teams pay a lot of money to come to Vegas to play games and then get a ref who might be working his 8th game of the day for the third consecutive day.

It's just not right.

[Judtech]

Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo

The Las Vegas summer tournaments have become a place where many below average refs come to town and whore themselves out and work way too many games.

Teams pay a lot of money to come to Vegas to play games and then get a ref who might be working his 8th game of the day for the third consecutive day.

It's just not right.

Why do I think this goes on all year and not just during the summers?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo

The Las Vegas summer tournaments have become a place where many below average refs come to town and whore themselves out and work way too many games.

Teams pay a lot of money to come to Vegas to play games and then get a ref who might be working his 8th game of the day for the third consecutive day.

It's just not right.

Perhaps the officials aren't paid enough per game (I have no knowledge of LV basketball, so I'm not specifically referring to it -- rather any sport where I have to stay in a hotel to work the games). I know that if I'm going to *go* someplace to officiate, it had better pay for all my expenses (hotel, meals) at a minimum. If it takes 8 games to do that, I'll probably work the 8 games.

If I'm told I'm only going to work 2 games a day and the pay is $20 a game, why would I want to work *at all*?

[Johnny Ringo]

IMO ... many ref the game just for the money. A source of income, and don't take pride in being a good official. Working that many games in a day is not fair to the kids. PERIOD.

And it showed last week.