Survey says.....

[Adam]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I think we can agree that this scenario is a huge departure from what we were talking about.

The original situation included an already incensed parent. Big difference

1. However, I still maintain that having parents (fans, girlfriends, uncles, whatever) coming out of the stands onto the court is asking for trouble.

2. Start with - how in the world do YOU know this guy is his dad? Move on to - "Dad's" concern for his son begins to abate as he's being tended to, then he
decides it's YOUR fault for letting the game get out of control (or whatever).

Coaches and players know what is expected of them, behavior-wise, and know there are repercussions for crossing the line. Parents, fans, etc do not. You may get away with this 99 times. Then you may sincerely regret the 100th.

It's a departure from the OP, but it's the precise scenario that was being discussed, tacitly. This was a re-hash of a previous discussion in which one long time poster, Nevadaref, has said he would not only have the parent ejected from the game but would also assess a T to the home team for exhibiting poor game management.

Now, I agree with #1.
As for #2, how do you know he's not a doctor? Frankly, I'm not getting close enough to find out because I don't care. As long as he's simply tending to the player, it's not my business. As soon as he addresses me with anything other than, "Do you know the number to the nearest urgent care facility?" it's over and I'm deferring to either game management or the player's coach (if GM is not available.)

I ask again, rather than just get snarky with BktBallRef, why don't you tell us how you would handle the situation?

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

As for #2, how do you know he's not a doctor?

Because he was seen in the parking lot driving a Yugo.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by DLH17

....which is another reason why i'm hesitant to see officials touch a kid for any reason (even tho, in some situations like relaxed summer ball - it may not be as big a deal). we never really know who we are dealing with. said player's dad could be a psycho, over protective, my johnny is my world nutbag.

We can talk about possible psycho scenarios, and why not to get involved, all day long. If this dad really is a psycho, then simply touching his little johnny isn't the only reason he could get upset, he could also come running out of the stands to confront you when his kid got fouled and you didn't call it, costing his team the summer league 3rd place trophy. Or whatever.

The point is, if we act reasonably, there is no reason to fear any coach or parent when it comes to an injury. Almost all of the time there is someone more qualified than me to take care of any injuries, so I'm not involved in any way other than managing the game. If there's a chance I can help a severely injured player in any way, I'm helping, even if it's just to make them more comfortable until actual help arrives. If an adult comes out on the floor to tend to an injured kid, that's fine by me, and I'm not asking for an ID to see if they're a parent or specific relative. If they decide that's the time to take a free shot at any of the officiating crew, then they've bought themselves an early exit. It's not that hard.

[DLH17]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

We can talk about possible psycho scenarios, and why not to get involved, all day long. If this dad really is a psycho, then simply touching his little johnny isn't the only reason he could get upset, he could also come running out of the stands to confront you when his kid got fouled and you didn't call it, costing his team the summer league 3rd place trophy. Or whatever.

The point is, if we act reasonably, there is no reason to fear any coach or parent when it comes to an injury. Almost all of the time there is someone more qualified than me to take care of any injuries, so I'm not involved in any way other than managing the game. If there's a chance I can help a severely injured player in any way, I'm helping, even if it's just to make them more comfortable until actual help arrives. If an adult comes out on the floor to tend to an injured kid, that's fine by me, and I'm not asking for an ID to see if they're a parent or specific relative. If they decide that's the time to take a free shot at any of the officiating crew, then they've bought themselves an early exit. It's not that hard.

And, I would say acting reasonable in most situations would be to dispatch a runner for a bag of ice, call a coach in and/or walk away.

Risk automatically reduced.

If they do or say something out of line towards me - I'm with you, they get an early exit. Problem solved.

In short, I agree with your take, M&M.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Obviously you only work in pristine air-conditioned conditions with newly painted walls where everyone is cheerful and just there for the kids. In real life - letting parents come on the court is just asking for an escalation of the situation.

Mike, here's the thread that Tony is commenting on. You have to read it to see why he made his reponse.

T Up a Fan?!?

In the context of the discussion, not very many posters disagreed with BktBallRef's take.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by DLH17

Risk automatically reduced.

This would be the only line I might have a slight disagreement with. I don't think we should base our actions simply on the less risky approach, but rather what's right. Most of the time what's right is to let other more qualified people handle injuries and situations outside the game itself. But I'm not going to remove myself from a situation simply to avoid risk.

A simple, game-related question: would you base a call on what would provide less risk? Perhaps a call that coaches and players would be less likely to get upset about? Or do you make the right call, even knowing someone may get upset?

An injury-related story and question - just recently there was an accident on a local highway where a trucker took his eyes off the road and didn't see the traffic stopped in front of him for road construction. He plowed into several vehicles, and one of them caught fire. In an interview with one person who ran up and pulled one of the people out of the burning vehicle, he was surprised at the people who stood there, not helping, because they were afraid of doing something wrong and getting sued. 3 people left in the vehicle ended up dying. Given the Good Samaratin law on the books, how many of those 3 might've lived had people done the right thing, rather than worried about doing the thing that was less risky to them?

[DLH17]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

This would be the only line I might have a slight disagreement with. I don't think we should base our actions simply on the less risky approach, but rather what's right. Most of the time what's right is to let other more qualified people handle injuries and situations outside the game itself. But I'm not going to remove myself from a situation simply to avoid risk.

I'm on board with that logic, because what is right is right! Right? The flip side, which you and I often have to consider is - sometimes doing the "right thing" isn't going to be viewed as "the right thing" by certain people. I'm with you, let's be there to facilitate help and healing. Let's also remember that even when we, as officials, do the "right thing", there is still a very real possibility that we will be scorned for it by some. I just want to stay out of trouble.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

A simple, game-related question: would you base a call on what would provide less risk? Perhaps a call that coaches and players would be less likely to get upset about? Or do you make the right call, even knowing someone may get upset?

We aren't talking about how to handle an injured player any longer, are we? To answer the question, not necessarily (probably never). My approach to officiating any game is guided more by how my partner(s) and I have determined we should manage that particular game. We don't have big pow wows before summer league games, for instance, but there is a general expectation/anticipation towards how we will manage/call those games. Choosing the path of "less risky" calls can get, well, uh, risky.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

An injury-related story and question - just recently there was an accident on a local highway where a trucker took his eyes off the road and didn't see the traffic stopped in front of him for road construction. He plowed into several vehicles, and one of them caught fire. In an interview with one person who ran up and pulled one of the people out of the burning vehicle, he was surprised at the people who stood there, not helping, because they were afraid of doing something wrong and getting sued. 3 people left in the vehicle ended up dying. Given the Good Samaratin law on the books, how many of those 3 might've lived had people done the right thing, rather than worried about doing the thing that was less risky to them?

Different situation....life and death. I've never been a part of that on a basketball court. I'm sure my "less risk" approach would go right out the window, though, if someone's life was in fact on the line and I knew I could help.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

However, I still maintain that having parents (fans, girlfriends, uncles, whatever) coming out of the stands onto the court is asking for trouble.

Start with - how in the world do YOU know this guy is his dad? Move on to - "Dad's" concern for his son begins to abate as he's being tended to, then he
decides it's YOUR fault for letting the game get out of control (or whatever).

I believe it far more likely that you'd have more trouble in trying to stop a parent from tending to their child.

If he is not his dad or a medically trained person or is simply looking for trouble, that will become evident quick enough. I'm going to be far enough away from the injury to make that obvious.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I think we can agree that this scenario is a huge departure from what we were talking about.

The original situation included an already incensed parent. Big difference

However, I still maintain that having parents (fans, girlfriends, uncles, whatever) coming out of the stands onto the court is asking for trouble.

Start with - how in the world do YOU know this guy is his dad? Move on to - "Dad's" concern for his son begins to abate as he's being tended to, then he
decides it's YOUR fault for letting the game get out of control (or whatever).

Coaches and players know what is expected of them, behavior-wise, and know there are repercussions for crossing the line. Parents, fans, etc do not. You may get away with this 99 times. Then you may sincerely regret the 100th.

Now who is departing from the original scenario?

And so what if he's not his Dad? Are you going check ID?