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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 08, 2010, 01:59pm
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Proper Call - Common Foul

7th Grade B - Church league - A1 picks up his dribble near foul line extended and I see him raise his arm with a fist to strike B1, I blow whistle, A1 complains he was poked in the eye on purpose, which I did not see, partner did not see, I call PF on A1 for raised fist. I report the foul and coach yells at me to call them both ways, he gets a T...explain to him did not see the poke in the eye, A1 walks by me mouthing to me, he gets a T...we shoot the FT's...no more problems

Did not know what to call with the raised Fist...I think I could have called an Intentional or Flagrant personal since the ball was live...

In this church league there is no tollerance for unsportsmanship.

The raised fist call, A1 did not strike B1: PF? - Intentional?
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Old Mon Feb 08, 2010, 02:11pm
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Flagrant. Falls under the definition of fighting (4-18).

"Fighting is a flagrant act and can occur when the ball is dead or live. Fighting
includes, but is not limited to combative acts such as:
ART. 1 . . . An attempt to strike, punch or kick by using a fist, hands, arms, legs
or feet regardless of whether contact is made.
ART. 2 . . . An attempt to instigate a fight by committing an unsporting act that
causes a person to retaliate by fighting."
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Old Mon Feb 08, 2010, 02:12pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaco54 View Post
7th Grade B - Church league - A1 picks up his dribble near foul line extended and I see him raise his arm with a fist to strike B1, I blow whistle, A1 complains he was poked in the eye on purpose, which I did not see, partner did not see, I call PF on A1 for raised fist. I report the foul and coach yells at me to call them both ways, he gets a T...explain to him did not see the poke in the eye, A1 walks by me mouthing to me, he gets a T...we shoot the FT's...no more problems

Did not know what to call with the raised Fist...I think I could have called an Intentional or Flagrant personal since the ball was live...

In this church league there is no tollerance for unsportsmanship.

The raised fist call, A1 did not strike B1: PF? - Intentional?
Technical -> Unsporting.
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Old Mon Feb 08, 2010, 02:14pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron View Post
Flagrant. Falls under the definition of fighting (4-18).

"Fighting is a flagrant act and can occur when the ball is dead or live. Fighting
includes, but is not limited to combative acts such as:
ART. 1 . . . An attempt to strike, punch or kick by using a fist, hands, arms, legs
or feet regardless of whether contact is made.
ART. 2 . . . An attempt to instigate a fight by committing an unsporting act that
causes a person to retaliate by fighting."
Do you call "making a fist an "attempt to strike"?

I don't personally. I consider it an unsporting act and call the foul accordingly.

Note that A1 would have been gone with his second "T" anyway.

Last edited by Jurassic Referee; Mon Feb 08, 2010 at 02:25pm.
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Old Mon Feb 08, 2010, 02:19pm
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Originally Posted by JPaco54 View Post
A1 picks up his dribble near foul line extended and I see him raise his arm with a fist to strike B1, I blow whistle, A1 complains he was poked in the eye on purpose, which I did not see, partner did not see, I call PF on A1 for raised fist. I

Did not know what to call with the raised Fist...I think I could have called an Intentional or Flagrant personal since the ball was live...

The raised fist call, A1 did not strike B1: PF? - Intentional?
If he didn't take a swing at his opponent, I would call a technical foul for an unsporting act- same as Mick.

Note that by rule you can't call a non-contact foul a personal foul during a live ball. All non-contact unsporting fouls during live balls are technical fouls of some kind---regular, intentional or flagrant.

Btw, good job of taking care of bidness. You caught the raised fist before it escalated into something more and you didn't let the coach/player crap on you for making the right call also.
Check out rule 4-19-1 and 4-19-5(b)

Last edited by Jurassic Referee; Mon Feb 08, 2010 at 02:24pm.
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Old Mon Feb 08, 2010, 02:32pm
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Grandma Backs me up

The grandmother approached me and stated that the boy you gave a tech on is my grandson, so I thought ok here it comes, but she said,"Dont worry ref he will be getting it at home too, if his momma and daddy don't punish him, I will."

Thank you all for the feedback.
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Old Mon Feb 08, 2010, 03:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee View Post
Do you call "making a fist an "attempt to strike"?

I don't personally. I consider it an unsporting act and call the foul accordingly.

Note that A1 would have been gone with his second "T" anyway.
I would think it is an action to instigate a fight as per Article 2. It could result in an opponent, thinking he's about to get hit, retaliating by fighting...

it would be a HTBT moment for me. Depends how the fist was raised, what angle it's at, how close it is to the opponent, etc.
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Old Mon Feb 08, 2010, 03:31pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by representing View Post
I would think it is an action to instigate a fight as per Article 2. It could result in an opponent, thinking he's about to get hit, retaliating by fighting...

it would be a HTBT moment for me. Depends how the fist was raised, what angle it's at, how close it is to the opponent, etc.
And if the opponent actually does throw a preemptive punch, you can get them both for fighting. The rule is there to allow us to punish a player who does something that isn't necessarily considered fighting but leads to a fight; like the OP could have but didn't (due to good officiating).
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Old Mon Feb 08, 2010, 03:34pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee View Post
Do you call "making a fist an "attempt to strike"?

I don't personally. I consider it an unsporting act and call the foul accordingly.

Note that A1 would have been gone with his second "T" anyway.
Hm, you might be right. When I read the OP I thought there was an attempt to strike, but apparently I interpolated that.
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Old Mon Feb 08, 2010, 04:30pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by representing View Post
I would think it is an action to instigate a fight as per Article 2. It could result in an opponent, thinking he's about to get hit, retaliating by fighting...
How can you interpret it as an action to instigate a fight when it DIDN'T instigate a fight?

Yes, it could result in an opponent retaliating but it DIDN'T result in an opponent retaliating.

You call what happened, not what might happen. If the closed fist caused a retaliation, go ahead and call both players for fighting. If there's no retaliation, go by Article 1. And Article 1 says that there has to be an attempt to strike made.

And don't "think". That'll get you into trouble every time. Be sure.

Last edited by Jurassic Referee; Mon Feb 08, 2010 at 04:35pm.
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