What's the rule, what's the call, what's common sense?

[rainmaker]

The thread below about a foul at the end of the game called this situation to mind.

Hypothetical Question:

The rule book says that "No free throw(s) shall be attempted after time has expired for the fourth quarter or any extra period, unless the point(s) would affect the outcome ofthe game."

So here's the sitch: Last game of the season, team not advancing to play-offs. Team A down by two, A1 (who is a senior) shoots, ball released before the horn, A1 is fouled. A1 misses the first FT. But the coach had come to you before the first FT and said, "A1 only needs one more point to break our school's career scoring record. Can he shoot both shots regardless?" What do you do?

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by rainmaker
The thread below about a foul at the end of the game called this situation to mind.

Hypothetical Question:

The rule book says that "No free throw(s) shall be attempted after time has expired for the fourth quarter or any extra period, unless the point(s) would affect the outcome ofthe game."

So here's the sitch: Last game of the season, team not advancing to play-offs. Team A down by two, A1 (who is a senior) shoots, ball released before the horn, A1 is fouled. A1 misses the first FT. But the coach had come to you before the first FT and said, "A1 only needs one more point to break our school's career scoring record. Can he shoot both shots regardless?" What do you do?

"He can shoot 'em coach, but none of the officials will be here to watch."

[Hawks Coach]

It seems we have the Nykesha Sales story with a different twist, and one which inspires little sympathy for the player in question. Instead of asking the opposition to work with us to allow a player to get the record (which clearly would have been achieved without the injury), we will ask the ref to give us a little help. Regardless of how you feel about the Sales incident (which has strong feelings on both sides), this one seems pretty clear.

This player is not injured, not impeded from obtaining the record, but has not achieved it. Could have made any of a number of missed opportunities throughout the game or the year, but didn't and is one point short. Could have made the initial shot from the floor to tie the game with a FT to win, but didn't. Could have made the first FT, but didn't. Now that a game, and season, is over a coach is asking for some "help." No way. Game over, season over, no record.

[APHP]

Headlines in local paper next day---

OFFICIALS BREAK RULES
PLAYER BREAKS RECORD

[garote]

I know I'm a !@#$$@# but records are earned not given. Sorry Coach, the rule is the rule.

Besides I would hope the kid doesn't want to earn the record that way.

[JRutledge]

Well I can answer one thing for you, we would not have the problem with a team not playing in the playoffs. Everyone plays at least one game in the playoffs or Regional here.

Secondly, I would not be there to shot anything, the game is over.

Peace

[zebraman]

"Coach, I appreciate your loyalty to your player, but I am not going to set the rules aside." Goodbye now."

Z

[Indy_Ref]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
It seems we have the Nykesha Sales story with a different twist, and one which inspires little sympathy for the player in question. Instead of asking the opposition to work with us to allow a player to get the record (which clearly would have been achieved without the injury), we will ask the ref to give us a little help. Regardless of how you feel about the Sales incident (which has strong feelings on both sides), this one seems pretty clear.

This player is not injured, not impeded from obtaining the record, but has not achieved it. Could have made any of a number of missed opportunities throughout the game or the year, but didn't and is one point short. Could have made the initial shot from the floor to tie the game with a FT to win, but didn't. Could have made the first FT, but didn't. Now that a game, and season, is over a coach is asking for some "help." No way. Game over, season over, no record.

Hawks Coach, I completely agree...but what would you say to this:

In Indiana, where the foxes rule the henhouse (and the coaches are the ONLY means to get into, and advance, in the post season tournaments, if you tell him "Sorry, coach. No go.", you're likely to receive backlash in your tournament vote. One "poor" vote or one "no" vote (as in, this official does not belong in the tournament) is BRUTAL to an official's ranking. It could drop you out of the next level.

Question to the coaches: How many of you would actually ACCEPT an official's decision if he/she said, "Sorry, coach!" in the above situation??

To prove what a ridiculous system it is here, I know an official who has been around for quite some time. At his peak, he would commonly receive 100+ "state" votes (the highest vote possible in the previous rating system)...but his 8-10 "sectional" votes (the lowest an official who was already in the tournament could receive) would keep him out of the state finals every year! Consequently, officials who work the same 20 schools and receive zero "sectional" votes would work the state championship games.

Ah...I don't want to get myself started on this!!

[Mlancaster]

Can't do it.
There is really no wiggle room on this one.

[Mark Padgett]

Juulie - if you ever run into this situation, ask the coach if he or she thinks that would be fair to the kid who currently holds the record.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Mark Padgett
Juulie - if you ever run into this situation, ask the coach if he or she thinks that would be fair to the kid who currently holds the record.

Juulie - don't ask that question. The coach won't care if it's fair. I think Mark's half-kidding anyway. . .

[A Pennsylvania Coach]

Originally posted by Indy_Ref
Question to the coaches: How many of you would actually ACCEPT an official's decision if he/she said, "Sorry, coach!" in the above situation??

I would never ask that question. I'm not artificially going after any records. The closest I've gotten is this situation from last year. Friday night home game, senior 11 points shy of 1,000, several games left in the season. Tuesday game is away. We are big favorites and up 56-31 going into the fourth quarter. I should have her sitting out the last few minutes of this game, at the minimum, but she's been having a terrible game and is still 7 points shy of the mark. I leave her in what feels like too long, and she eventually fouls out 4 points shy with about 1:30 left. I don't know if I did the right thing or not, but I know how I would've felt if she'd have gotten injured in that situation.

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by Indy_Ref
Hawks Coach, I completely agree...but what would you say to this:

In Indiana, where the foxes rule the henhouse (and the coaches are the ONLY means to get into, and advance, in the post season tournaments, if you tell him "Sorry, coach. No go.", you're likely to receive backlash in your tournament vote. One "poor" vote or one "no" vote (as in, this official does not belong in the tournament) is BRUTAL to an official's ranking. It could drop you out of the next level.

Question to the coaches: How many of you would actually ACCEPT an official's decision if he/she said, "Sorry, coach!" in the above situation??

To prove what a ridiculous system it is here, I know an official who has been around for quite some time. At his peak, he would commonly receive 100+ "state" votes (the highest vote possible in the previous rating system)...but his 8-10 "sectional" votes (the lowest an official who was already in the tournament could receive) would keep him out of the state finals every year! Consequently, officials who work the same 20 schools and receive zero "sectional" votes would work the state championship games.

Ah...I don't want to get myself started on this!! [/B]

First, I agree with PennCoach - I wouldn't asking - EVER! Those that would ask, probably won't like the "sorry" response. I have little respect for these individuals!

As for your quandary regarding future games, I can't say that I have been there and can answer with full knowledge. But I can't resist the obvious question - where do you draw this line? What is an acceptable request from a coach that you will follow his wishes so you aren't blacklisted? This may seem harmless, but it seems to me that you are going into places you don't want to be if you are granting favors for a quid pro quo.

I am sure you didn't mean it that way, but re-read your post and think about the implications. I personally wouldn't want to be in your shoes, and I know you're stuck with how things are in your area. But you have a job to do, and I know what I think about how it should be done.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Juulie - don't ask that question. The coach won't care if it's fair. I think Mark's half-kidding anyway. . .

As with a lot of the sentences Mark suggests, it's a very, very good one to have in my toolbox. It might be the right thing to say to that certain coach. And it's a great way for ME to look at it, even if I don't say it outloud.

[Indy_Ref]

As for your quandary regarding future games, I can't say that I have been there and can answer with full knowledge. But I can't resist the obvious question - where do you draw this line? What is an acceptable request from a coach that you will follow his wishes so you aren't blacklisted? This may seem harmless, but it seems to me that you are going into places you don't want to be if you are granting favors for a quid pro quo.

I am sure you didn't mean it that way, but re-read your post and think about the implications. I personally wouldn't want to be in your shoes, and I know you're stuck with how things are in your area. But you have a job to do, and I know what I think about how it should be done. [/B]

In some ways, I DO mean it that way. I believe it is difficult for many young officials to draw the line in the proper place! One of the mentors in my area teaches young officials how to "play the coaches" so you can make it into the state tournament. At first, I bought into his teachings since I wanted to get into the tournament. Since I've been in it for a while, and looking back, I completely disagree with his way. Now that I've been to a few college camps that have gotten me focused on doing what is right rather than trying to be so accommodating to the coaches, I'm interested how the coaches will react.

The biggest problem in Indiana: the basketball coaches have all the power in terms of whether an official makes it to, and advances in, the state tournaments. Therefore, the official who wants to make it into either tournament gets caught in-between doing what is often the correct thing to do vs. how can I make/keep the coach happy so he/she won't "ding" me!

Although most of the officials in the tournaments are good, you could imagine that we do NOT have ALL of the top guys participating simply because they either don't want to play the politics, or because a few coaches make sure that official doesn't make it into the tournament...by calling a few other coaches, and so on, and so on.