Six players on the court

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Wellmer

I am with RichMSN, the very last thing I do before handing the ball to the inbounder is to glance at the table. If he's close, I will just hold up and point towards the table therefore notifying the table side official that a sub is coming in. In this case, I would have killed it, since the buzzer sounded, kept the player out and started back up with the throw in. No harm done.

If you blow the whistle and kill the play, by (NFHS) rule you must allow the substitution.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Wellmer

I am with RichMSN, the very last thing I do before handing the ball to the inbounder is to glance at the table. If he's close, I will just hold up and point towards the table therefore notifying the table side official that a sub is coming in. In this case, I would have killed it, since the buzzer sounded, kept the player out and started back up with the throw in. No harm done.

You're not completely with Rich, he'd have allowed the sub.

Besides:

Originally Posted by jdw3018

If you blow the whistle and kill the play, by (NFHS) rule you must allow the substitution.

[doubleringer]

I would have stopped play and made the sub go back and wait for the next dead ball. I also would have taken a second to talk to the table about not hitting the horn if we're already in putting the ball in play.

Playing devil's advocate....how much of a pregame did you do with the table crew?

[Rich]

It's obvious (to me, anyway) when a coach is holding back a sub for the next opportunity. If the kid is walking up to the table and isn't delaying things for more than a second or two, I'm holding up and letting him in.

Clearly, others' mileage varies.

In this instance with the horn blowing, I'm not pulling out a sledgehammer to handle what could be done with a quick whistle and a quick word. Again, others' mileage varies.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by doubleringer

I would have stopped play and made the sub go back and wait for the next dead ball. I also would have taken a second to talk to the table about not hitting the horn if we're already in putting the ball in play.

Playing devil's advocate....how much of a pregame did you do with the table crew?

Again, there is no rules justification for holding an eligible substitute out. If you stop play to prevent the T, you have just created a new opportunity to substitute, and you must allow the eligible sub to enter the game.

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

The whistle is irrelevant. Why is it being blown anyway?

I don't know why it's being blown but that's not the point. I'm using the whistle as a frame of reference.

The point is that all three officials were ready and focused the fact that the ball was actively being put in play. The player only got to the bench when the ball was already in the player's hands, meaning the ball is live. At that point, as an official, I don't focus on the bench. If the ball is in the hands of the thrower, my attention is on the action on the floor.

I don't think its fair to say, based on the video, that the officials were slacking here. The player came late to the bench, and the horn operator was at fault for sounding the horn.

[Wellmer]

It would be safe to say then that if we wouldn't have had an inadvertant horn, the sub wouldn't have come in. Usually when the horn sounds everyone stops, for at least a split second anyway. Using common sense, I would go explain that even though the horn sounded, it was too late and I would keep the sub out. I understand since you have a dead ball now that the sub in all rights should be able to come in but from a teaching standpoint, I would keep him out because rightfully, he should not be on the floor yet

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Wellmer

It would be safe to say then that if we wouldn't have had an inadvertant horn, the sub wouldn't have come in. Usually when the horn sounds everyone stops, for at least a split second anyway. Using common sense, I would go explain that even though the horn sounded, it was too late and I would keep the sub out. I understand since you have a dead ball now that the sub in all rights should be able to come in but from a teaching standpoint, I would keep him out because rightfully if everything had gone correctly, he should not be on the floor yet

Fixed it for you. If you're in some sort of teaching environment, ok. I've found the kids learn just as quickly when I enforce the rules as written; tell the thrower to play on. In the video, I'd have gone with the T (assuming I didn't slow down seeing the sub come in).
The biggest lesson needed is for the player to know he has to wait until the refs tell him he can come in. One T and he'll never forget. A talk from the official? He'll forget by the next morning.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Wellmer

It would be safe to say then that if we wouldn't have had an inadvertant horn, the sub wouldn't have come in. Usually when the horn sounds everyone stops, for at least a split second anyway. Using common sense, I would go explain that even though the horn sounded, it was too late and I would keep the sub out. I understand since you have a dead ball now that the sub in all rights should be able to come in but from a teaching standpoint, I would keep him out because rightfully, he should not be on the floor yet

What are you teaching? That's it's OK for officials to ignore a plainly written rule because they don't like or agree with that rule? That it's OK to go ahead and make up their own rules if their "common sense" tells them that they're right and the rules are wrong?

Lah me......

[Wellmer]

That would work too. The problem that helped this situation was the horn that should not have been blown. Some of the clock keepers that I am around tend to listen to a coach yelling "sub, sub, sub" and even before they get to the X, they are buzzing the horn. After a discussion with them about this, it rarely happens again, at least on this particular night. Good discussion here.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Wellmer

That would work too. The problem that helped this situation was the horn that should not have been blown. Some of the clock keepers that I am around tend to listen to a coach yelling "sub, sub, sub" and even before they get to the X, they are buzzing the horn. After a discussion with them about this, it rarely happens again, at least on this particular night. Good discussion here.

Every time the horn blows in this case, I tell the thrower to continue. Typically, the players know to wait for us around here, so I wouldn't have caught any grief for the T.

[Wellmer]

So to make sure that I understand correctly, on every substitution occurance, after the horn sounds, there is never ever a time where you don't beckon on the subs during the course of a game? I know you would blow your whistle to stop play and so forth, I understand that, but at some point, I don't always see the beckoning on signal. I have seen this on college games on TV and even the ESPN high school games. I am not disagreeing with how this whole situation was handled, just giving my input. This kid heard the horn and came on the court. Did he learn a lesson? Yes, I think he did. Next time, he will wait to be beckoned on the court, I am sure.

[gslefeb]

I would have thought the center would have seen the player standing up, coming to the table prior.

The trail was walking from the center of the court never glanced over to the table. If he did, he would have seen the sub.

Was the ball put back in play too quickly?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Wellmer

So to make sure that I understand correctly, on every substitution occurance, after the horn sounds, there is never ever a time where you don't beckon on the subs during the course of a game? I know you would blow your whistle to stop play and so forth, I understand that, but at some point, I don't always see the beckoning on signal. I have seen this on college games on TV and even the ESPN high school games. I am not disagreeing with how this whole situation was handled, just giving my input. This kid heard the horn and came on the court. Did he learn a lesson? Yes, I think he did. Next time, he will wait to be beckoned on the court, I am sure.

At the high school levels here, the players all look at the officials before going onto the court. If I'm standing right in front of them, I'll simply tell them verbally to come in.

[Wellmer]

Snaqwells, they do the same thing here. That was my thought. Without the horn, no problem would have occurred but it did and then as officials you have to handle it from there.