Can't believe it, but I heard it

[TheOracle]

Originally Posted by TimTaylor

You know, it never fails to amaze me how someone 50-60 or more feet from a play with a relatively crummy angle of view, and minimal knowledge and even less understanding of the rules, thinks they have a better look and better judgment than a trained official who's right on top of it. If the table were the best place to call the game from they'd put the officials there instead of having them on the court.

For table personnel to make comments on a call or lack thereof from their own myopic viewpoint is unprofessional.

Before you beat this poor boy to death, it appears to me that he has a pretty good grasp of the rules and is trying to learn. It never fails to amaze me that the officials on this forum never seem to admit that a lot of mistakes in judgment are made in every single game, and that the lower the level of game, the chances are that there are tons of blatant mistakes made. Evaluators, albeit they are trained, sit in the stands and make judgments on officials' performance. Those who have been critiqued for 30 minutes after a game by an evaluator and on tapes/videos by the supervisor understand that. Anyone can see and understand a bad call and it happens, and when you make the correct, but unpopular call, you should have a high enough self-esteem and thick enough skin to understand that if you are a good official, that does not happen often, and when it does, you should have a good laugh about it.

[Ignats75]

Originally Posted by TheOracle

Before you beat this poor boy to death, it appears to me that he has a pretty good grasp of the rules and is trying to learn. It never fails to amaze me that the officials on this forum never seem to admit that a lot of mistakes in judgment are made in every single game, and that the lower the level of game, the chances are that there are tons of blatant mistakes made. Evaluators, albeit they are trained, sit in the stands and make judgments on officials' performance. Those who have been critiqued for 30 minutes after a game by an evaluator and on tapes/videos by the supervisor understand that. Anyone can see and understand a bad call and it happens, and when you make the correct, but unpopular call, you should have a high enough self-esteem and thick enough skin to understand that if you are a good official, that does not happen often, and when it does, you should have a good laugh about it.

I have never, ever had an evaluator or assignor criticize my judgement on a call. they too recognize that my angle may see something that they don't. What they are looking for are my mechanics and rules applications as well as my comportment on the floor. An evaluator that tells me the travel I missed in the 2q when I felt that there was no control, loses any chance of saying anything to me with credibility.

[TheOracle]

Originally Posted by Ignats75

I have never, ever had an evaluator or assignor criticize my judgement on a call. they too recognize that my angle may see something that they don't. What they are looking for are my mechanics and rules applications as well as my comportment on the floor. An evaluator that tells me the travel I missed in the 2q when I felt that there was no control, loses any chance of saying anything to me with credibility.

The evaluations I refer to are those where every whistle is given a plus, zero, or minus, and non-calls that should have had whistles are noted. Combined with films, that is how you improve judgment. No credibility? You won;t be getting called to return next year. Like I said, you have to have a thick skin and true confidence.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by TheOracle

The evaluations I refer to are those where every whistle is given a plus, zero, or minus, and non-calls that should have had whistles are noted. Combined with films, that is how you improve judgment. No credibility? You won;t be getting called to return next year. Like I said, you have to have a thick skin and true confidence.

Those "plus, zero, or minus" gradings are done by reviewing game tape/film/dvd, not on the sidelines by an evaluator.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by TheOracle

Before you beat this poor boy to death, it appears to me that he has a pretty good grasp of the rules and is trying to learn. It never fails to amaze me that the officials on this forum never seem to admit that a lot of mistakes in judgment are made in every single game, and that the lower the level of game, the chances are that there are tons of blatant mistakes made. Evaluators, albeit they are trained, sit in the stands and make judgments on officials' performance. Those who have been critiqued for 30 minutes after a game by an evaluator and on tapes/videos by the supervisor understand that. Anyone can see and understand a bad call and it happens, and when you make the correct, but unpopular call, you should have a high enough self-esteem and thick enough skin to understand that if you are a good official, that does not happen often, and when it does, you should have a good laugh about it.

Are you serious? The correct but unpopular call happens as often as once or twice a game. Backcourt calls typically fit into this, as do technical fouls, allowing a player to be in the lane for rebound after rebound, etc.

And can you tell me where in this thread someone denied mistakes are made by officials? No where.

I simply said for chseagle to try assuming the official saw something different, and if he has a question and the officials are open to him asking, to ask away.

[Back In The Saddle]

Why is it that when TheOracle speaks, it so often sounds like a very different bodily noise? Smells like it too.

[TheOracle]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Are you serious? The correct but unpopular call happens as often as once or twice a game. Backcourt calls typically fit into this, as do technical fouls, allowing a player to be in the lane for rebound after rebound, etc.

And can you tell me where in this thread someone denied mistakes are made by officials? No where.

I simply said for chseagle to try assuming the official saw something different, and if he has a question and the officials are open to him asking, to ask away.

I agree with everything you have said. Many others imply that people in the stands are not qualified or cannot see well enough to know when a mistake is made. It's sanctimonious, and unhelpful to those officials to think in that closed a fashion. As to your examples, I understand--those are not contentious issues in the games I officiate or assign.

I think what chseagle is doing is great.

[Adam]

So you think it's okay for a table person to tell the other people at the table the refs just screwed up? You think it's ok for an official sitting in the stands evaluating the officials on the floor to tell the fans sitting around him that the officials just screwed up?

How many times do the fans get on you for a call you got right? Often, in my experience. That means they think I made a mistake either by rule or by judgment. I can live with that from the fans, but I'm not going to accept if from the table crew. You may as well have your partner telling the table crew (yeah, my partner missed a travel but he was straight lined.) This has nothing to do with being thin skinned, it's about crew integrity.

The questions has been asked already, but why would the table crew assume one of their own knows better than the official on the court?

If a coach asks me why I missed something, and I may have, I'll tell him why. The few times I've had to do this, it works. But I don't want my partners or the table crew either calling out mistakes or making excuses for me.

[TheOracle]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

So you think it's okay for a table person to tell the other people at the table the refs just screwed up? You think it's ok for an official sitting in the stands evaluating the officials on the floor to tell the fans sitting around him that the officials just screwed up?

How many times do the fans get on you for a call you got right? Often, in my experience. That means they think I made a mistake either by rule or by judgment. I can live with that from the fans, but I'm not going to accept if from the table crew. You may as well have your partner telling the table crew (yeah, my partner missed a travel but he was straight lined.) This has nothing to do with being thin skinned, it's about crew integrity.

The questions has been asked already, but why would the table crew assume one of their own knows better than the official on the court?

If a coach asks me why I missed something, and I may have, I'll tell him why. The few times I've had to do this, it works. But I don't want my partners or the table crew either calling out mistakes or making excuses for me.

Again, we are in agreement. If a table crew is visibly reacting negatively, it gets addressed. One time I removed the scoreboard operator from he table area for shaking his head about calls after I asked him to stop doing it. I have probably seen that 2-3 times in 30 years. Paid evaulators in stands are doing, a job, and nobody around them will know what they are doing or what their opinions are. They are far to busy observing and filling out sheets. Making general comments? No need to have rabbit ears about anything.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by TheOracle

I think what chseagle is doing is great.

I'm not surprised.

[tomegun]

Is it me or has Chseagle's story changed/developed during this thread? He said something, said something low, is trying to stop, has stopped, says something to the other table crew. Whatever the case may be, if this guy is so good, why not get on the floor instead of sitting at the table? The game needs good officials...if you are as good as your comments indicate. I highly doubt it and would suggest more listening and less talking.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Is it me or has Chseagle's story changed/developed during this thread? He said something, said something low, is trying to stop, has stopped, says something to the other table crew. Whatever the case may be, if this guy is so good, why not get on the floor instead of sitting at the table? The game needs good officials...if you are as good as your comments indicate. I highly doubt it and would suggest more listening and less talking.

I have stated in a previous post, that due to health conditions, I am unable to be an official. I would love to be an official, but cause of my health, i cannot.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by chseagle

I have stated in a previous post, that due to health conditions, I am unable to be an official. I would love to be an official, but cause of my health, i cannot.

I'm sorry to hear that. You should know that coming to an officiating forum and admitting you throw officials under the bus will not be received well.