Continuous Motion?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BBrules

I just have a question: It seems from this sit that the ball was knocked from her hand rather than her actually shooting it. Does this still qualify as a 'try'? I may not be reading this right, but it seems the sequence was up for a shot, ball is knocked from her hand, she recovers ball and shoots with right hand before landing again. Is this correct?

That is the same question I ask.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Philosophically speaking I personally don't see "...while in the air she grabs the ball with both hands in front of her chest" as ending the try as I don't see ""in the air and the ball pops out of her left hand" as the beginning of the throw or as releasing the ball on a try.

It's why I asked earlier in the thread if there was ever a case play or rules interp. I'm not saying I'm right or anybody else is wrong--but right now I think this play is open to personal interpretation.

[Back In The Saddle]

When does the try begin? "The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball." During a layup that can be quite a bit before the actual attempted release of the ball.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

When does the try begin? "The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball." During a layup that can be quite a bit before the actual attempted release of the ball.

A try can begin way before the throw begins.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Philosophically speaking I personally don't see "...while in the air she grabs the ball with both hands in front of her chest" as ending the try as I don't see ""in the air and the ball pops out of her left hand" as the beginning of the throw or as releasing the ball on a try.

If the foul occurs before the player catches the ball and throws it toward the basket, then how could the foul possibly be during that try?
If you believe that the player was in the act of shooting when fouled, but then the player loses control of the ball, there is NO WAY that you can score a goal made by later obtaining control again and then throwing the ball into the basket.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

A try can begin way before the throw begins.

But can it begin before the player has the ball?

Consider this:
If A1 doesn't have the ball, but jumps into the air and is fouled, then catches a pass from a teammate or a rebound from a missed try and shoots, would you count the goal?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

If the foul occurs before the player catches the ball and throws it toward the basket, then how could the foul possibly be during that try?

I do not believe this to be relavent to the converstation.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

If you believe that the player was in the act of shooting when fouled, but then the player loses control of the ball, there is NO WAY that you can score a goal made by later obtaining control again and then throwing the ball into the basket.

Why not? Again, I never argued who was right or wrong, but I did ask for some sort of citation (case/rule/interp) and one has not been produced yet. I'm even willing to entertain someone stringing together a few rules to draw a conclusion.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

But can it begin before the player has the ball?

Consider this:
If A1 doesn't have the ball, but jumps into the air and is fouled, then catches a pass from a teammate or a rebound from a missed try and shoots, would you count the goal?

I wouldn't have to b/c I never would have blown my whistle in the first place.

[Reffing Rev.]

So I was L...watched player drive towards me and saw the foul...ball out, caught, (re)-shot, basket went in...

In my head in the matter of a split-second I said to myself...she's fouled on the shot...the try ended when she caught the ball...ball is dead...she shot a dead ball.

Great discussion. As I waved off the basket and awarded two shots everyone in the gym wanted to know why she was shooting two if the basket didn't count...

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I do not believe this to be relavent to the converstation.



Why not? Again, I never argued who was right or wrong, but I did ask for some sort of citation (case/rule/interp) and one has not been produced yet. I'm even willing to entertain someone stringing together a few rules to draw a conclusion.



I wouldn't have to b/c I never would have blown my whistle in the first place.

I was reading for a different question and found this:
6-7-9 Exception c. ...The trying motion must be continuous and begins after the ball comes to rest in the player's hand(s) on a try or touches the hand(s) on a tap, and is completed when the ball is clearly in flight....

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I was reading for a different question and found this:
6-7-9 Exception c. ...The trying motion must be continuous and begins after the ball comes to rest in the player's hand(s) on a try or touches the hand(s) on a tap, and is completed when the ball is clearly in flight....

Is that from the NFHS Case Book? I don't have it with me right now.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Is that from the NFHS Case Book? I don't have it with me right now.

No, that's from the NFHS rule book under the rule for when the ball becomes dead.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

No, that's from the NFHS rule book under the rule for when the ball becomes dead.

Oops, all 'dashes'.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Again, I never argued who was right or wrong, but I did ask for some sort of citation (case/rule/interp) and one has not been produced yet. I'm even willing to entertain someone stringing together a few rules to draw a conclusion.

Entertain this.....

1) A player is trying for goal when " when the player has the ball and in the official's judgment is throwing or attempting to throw for goal." Rule 4-41-2

2) If the player "has" the ball, the player is holding the ball and has player control. Rule 4-12-1.

3) In this situation, the player loses player control on either (a) the ball being in flight during a try (4-12-6) or because of a loose ball caused by an opponent' touch(9-5-2). Your choice, News.

4) In both cases in #3, the player re-gains player control when he/she again grabs the ball. Rule 4-12-1.

5) If you judged...and this is a judgment call.....that the player attempted a try and the ball then touched a defender as in 3a above, then the try ended when it was certain that it was unsuccessful. Rule 4-41-4. And it was certain that it was unsuccessful when the shooter again established player control by grabbing the ball before it went in the basket(4-12-1).

6) If you alternatively judged that the shooter lost player control during the try because of the loose ball caused by an opponent's touch, foul or partial block as in 3b above, that try also ended when the shooter again grabbed the loose ball, thus making certain the initial try was unsuccessful(4-41-4).

7) In both cases, the shooter after retrieving the loose ball(thus re-establishing player control) can legally come down with the ball or shoot/pass before he/she comes down.Case book play 9.5.1.

8) And also in both scenarios, if a foul was called on the defense before the try ended with the shooter re-gaining player control, the ball was dead as soon as that try ended and any subsequent try would be no good(you can't score with a dead ball-rule 5-1-1). See Rules 6-7-7 and 6-7EXCEPTIONa&c.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Entertain this.....

Now that's entertainment.