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Old Sat Dec 18, 2004, 06:17pm
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This happened in our game. HSGV game, dribbler on wing about FT line extended dribbling toward basket. Defense bumps her on her way to basket. Dribbler was in the process of picking up dribble and going for a shot, ball was still by her hip getting ready to bring it up. Anyway I call the foul and count the basket. The coach was upset that I didn't call it on the floor since it was quite a ways away from the basket. I told him continuous motion. Just when does the shooting motion start? Should the shooter have the ball up in a "shooting position" in order to count the bucket? I am looking for some general guidelines.

Thanks

Shont
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Old Sat Dec 18, 2004, 06:38pm
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i had this situation....

Jr. High boys, A1 gets the ball in low post. pivots and has the ball "locked and loaded" to shot the shot. B1 fouls him causing A1 to hestitate with the shot. After B1 fouls him, A1 puts up the shot, which was made!

B's coach says this isn't the NBA. there is no continous motion for jr. high ball. i very calmly tell him, yes there is CM and that just because the force of the foul caused A1 to hestitate, he never brought the ball down and only because of the foul that A1 couldn't get the shot off right away. it looked real funny!!! but, A1 never stopped or brought the ball below his head at all or even changed his grip on the ball.

the force of the foul caused him not to jump and not to put the shot up at the same time as the foul occurred.

i hope i explained that well. i wish i had video of it. bottomline, i counted the bucket and awarded 1 FT for the continous motion attempt.

was i correct?
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Old Sat Dec 18, 2004, 06:45pm
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It becomes a judgement call-"the ususal throwing motion has started before the foul occurs"-had to see your situation to know about your call
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Old Sat Dec 18, 2004, 06:47pm
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Maybe I am picturing these wrong, but it seems that neither of these shooters were "in the act of shooting," or in "continuous motion." Probably ones you would have to actualy see to judge.
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Old Sat Dec 18, 2004, 08:38pm
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This is not that difficult.

If the player has gathered their dribble, they have started the shooting motion and can finish any arm or feet movement within the rules to finish their shot.
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Old Sun Dec 19, 2004, 09:32am
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Re: i had this situation....

Quote:
Originally posted by JohnBark
Jr. High boys, A1 gets the ball in low post. pivots and has the ball "locked and loaded" to shot the shot. B1 fouls him causing A1 to hestitate with the shot. After B1 fouls him, A1 puts up the shot, which was made!

B's coach says this isn't the NBA. there is no continous motion for jr. high ball. i very calmly tell him, yes there is CM and that just because the force of the foul caused A1 to hestitate, he never brought the ball down and only because of the foul that A1 couldn't get the shot off right away. it looked real funny!!! but, A1 never stopped or brought the ball below his head at all or even changed his grip on the ball.

the force of the foul caused him not to jump and not to put the shot up at the same time as the foul occurred.

i hope i explained that well. i wish i had video of it. bottomline, i counted the bucket and awarded 1 FT for the continous motion attempt.

was i correct?
I had a similar situation and I made the same call you did, with the same laudatory comments from the coach. After I did a mental rewind, I think I had made a mistake by awarding the goal. In my case, the player keept the ball high but did a slight reload to regrip the ball after the contact. In retrospect the motion was neither normal or really continuous. Should have been no goal, two shot foul.
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 19, 2004, 10:53am
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"On the floor"

What's with this "on the floor" crap?? I have never seen it on Rules or Case book. I am coaching 11U boys and EVERYTHING is on the floor. Why do so many officials have such a lack of understanding of continuous motion??

TIA for all comments
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Old Sun Dec 19, 2004, 11:13am
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Re:

Quote:
Originally posted by justacoach
What's with this "on the floor" crap?? I have never seen it on Rules or Case book. I am coaching 11U boys and EVERYTHING is on the floor. Why do so many officials have such a lack of understanding of continuous motion??

Could you please be a little more specific on what "so many officials" means? Exactly how many of us officials really do have a lack of understanding of continuous motion? 10%? 40%? 90%? What is the percentage of officials that actually uses the term "on the floor"? 10%? 40%? 90%? And what are you basing your answers on? Special reports? Polls? Other? And also what exactly don't us officials understand about continuous motion?

We'll probably be able to respond a little bit better after you give us that info.
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Old Sun Dec 19, 2004, 11:44am
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Re:

Quote:
Originally posted by justacoach
What's with this "on the floor" crap?? I have never seen it on Rules or Case book. I am coaching 11U boys and EVERYTHING is on the floor. Why do so many officials have such a lack of understanding of continuous motion??
Everything is on the floor? Ever heard of an "airborne shooter"? Lots of things happen off the floor, but your point is taken.

When I do observations, or when I instruct new officials, I tell then not to use the phrase "on the floor". It's another of those "announcerspeak" phrases that is misleading, at best.

Continuous motion applies to any player who has started the shooting motion, whether that player is touching the floor or is airborne.
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Old Sun Dec 19, 2004, 11:46am
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Re: Re:

Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by justacoach
What's with this "on the floor" crap?? I have never seen it on Rules or Case book. I am coaching 11U boys and EVERYTHING is on the floor. Why do so many officials have such a lack of understanding of continuous motion??

Could you please be a little more specific on what "so many officials" means? Exactly how many of us officials really do have a lack of understanding of continuous motion? 10%? 40%? 90%? What is the percentage of officials that actually uses the term "on the floor"? 10%? 40%? 90%? And what are you basing your answers on? Special reports? Polls? Other? And also what exactly don't us officials understand about continuous motion?

We'll probably be able to respond a little bit better after you give us that info.
The essence of my question is how did this term enter the official's vocabulary.

I would expect this would be your cue to expound (from the wealth of knowledge I know you to possess) on the proper rationale for evaluating continuous motion, in terms that a lowly coach could understand.

Strike the reference to 'so many officials' that got your officious dander up. I didn't expect my submission would be parsed as if it were a doctoral thesis.

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Old Sun Dec 19, 2004, 12:05pm
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Re: Re:

Quote:
Originally posted by ChuckElias
Quote:
Originally posted by justacoach
What's with this "on the floor" crap?? I have never seen it on Rules or Case book. I am coaching 11U boys and EVERYTHING is on the floor. Why do so many officials have such a lack of understanding of continuous motion??
Everything is on the floor? Ever heard of an "airborne shooter"? Lots of things happen off the floor, but your point is taken.

When I do observations, or when I instruct new officials, I tell then not to use the phrase "on the floor". It's another of those "announcerspeak" phrases that is misleading, at best.

Continuous motion applies to any player who has started the shooting motion, whether that player is touching the floor or is airborne.
I wasn't implying we never got a basket awarded based on correct application of continuous motion,
Chuck, but, by virtue of their limited physical abilities, most action is, by definition, "on the floor!!!".
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Old Sun Dec 19, 2004, 01:02pm
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Re: Re: i had this situation....

Quote:
Originally posted by missinglink
Quote:
Originally posted by JohnBark
Jr. High boys, A1 gets the ball in low post. pivots and has the ball "locked and loaded" to shot the shot. B1 fouls him causing A1 to hestitate with the shot. After B1 fouls him, A1 puts up the shot, which was made!

B's coach says this isn't the NBA. there is no continous motion for jr. high ball. i very calmly tell him, yes there is CM and that just because the force of the foul caused A1 to hestitate, he never brought the ball down and only because of the foul that A1 couldn't get the shot off right away. it looked real funny!!! but, A1 never stopped or brought the ball below his head at all or even changed his grip on the ball.

the force of the foul caused him not to jump and not to put the shot up at the same time as the foul occurred.

i hope i explained that well. i wish i had video of it. bottomline, i counted the bucket and awarded 1 FT for the continous motion attempt.

was i correct?
I had a similar situation and I made the same call you did, with the same laudatory comments from the coach. After I did a mental rewind, I think I had made a mistake by awarding the goal. In my case, the player keept the ball high but did a slight reload to regrip the ball after the contact. In retrospect the motion was neither normal or really continuous. Should have been no goal, two shot foul.
The problem is not so much how you are interpreting CM, but when you whistle, you might be a little quick. If it was a contact..whistle....shot you are getting heat because the gap is there between the whistle and the shot being released. If you hold the whistle a beat your whistle and the shot go off closer together.
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Old Sun Dec 19, 2004, 02:30pm
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Good call!
See Referee magazine 10/2004 article on continuous motion.
For those non-subscribers I'll try to summarize:

"Operative rule is NFHS 4-11 Art 1, Continuous motion applies to a try or a tap for field goals and free throws, .....the foul may be against either the shooter or a teammate of the shooter..If fouled by an opponent after a player starts a try for goal, the player is permitted to complete the customary arm movement; and if stepping or pivoting, the player may complete the usual foot and/or body movement and in any activity while holding the ball; and those arm, foot and body movements are only allowed when the throwing motion has started prior to the foul and before the ball in in flight".

"In addition, continuous motion does not apply if a teammate fouls an opponent before the ball is in flight. In that case, the ball becomes dead immediately".

Here are some examples from the article:

"Play 1: Center A3 has the ball in the lane, A3 legally pivots to the left and then right. In a continued movement, A3 goes up for a hook shot, which is successful. During the initial pivot, B2 fouls A3. Ruling 1: Although it seems like the foul occurred an hour ago, it was during continuous motion, as well as the act of shooting. A3 gets the bucket plus one free throw".

"Play 3: A1 is on the line for one free throw. As A1 is about to release the ball, B2 pushes A3 illegally on the free-throw lane and is whistled for a foul. A1 continues the attempt and it's good. Ruling: Even though the foul wasn't against the shooter, you still have continuous motion. The free throw counts, If team A is in the bonus, A3 gets 1 and 1 or two freebies. If not in the bonus, team A gets the ball out of bounds".

"Play 4: While dribbling along the endline, A1 is pushed intentionally by B2. In (a), the foul by B2 is after A1 ends the dribble and then immediately takes a step and makes a layup, or (b)after B2's foul, A1 takes one more dribble and then makes the layup.

Ruling: In (a), continuous motion reigns. A1 not only gets the basket but two free throws for the intentional foul, plus the ball at the spot closest to the foul. In (b), no continuous motion since A1 dribbled after the foul. Take away the basket but give A1 the two free throws plus the ball as in (a)".

Hope this helps.
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Old Tue Dec 21, 2004, 11:49am
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Re: Re:

Quote:
Originally posted by ChuckElias

...When I do observations, or when I instruct new officials, I tell them not to use the phrase "on the floor". It's another of those "announcerspeak" phrases that is misleading, at best.
Interesting Chuck. I've never been told to avoid this phrase as it seems to be pretty clear to mean that the foul was committed prior to the act of shooting. Perhaps I am assuming too much here as I feel the term is somewhat common (not that THAT makes it correct). How can that be misleading?

I use it and sell it when I want to make it clear that we are not going to shoot FT's on that play as opposed to simply using the foul mechanic then having to respond to the coach when he asks "Wasn't he in the act of shooting?"

"Announcerspeak" to me would be things like; reaching foul, over the back, etc. but not on the floor. Prey tell, would I appear to be unprofessional if I invoke this phrase as part of my game.
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Old Tue Dec 21, 2004, 11:54am
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Re: Re: Re:

Quote:
Originally posted by Robmoz
Prey tell, would I appear to be unprofessional if I invoke this phrase as part of my game.
Not if you were doing an NCAAW's game -- it's specifically listed in the mechanics manual.
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