How to deal with the 3-sec rule

[wanja]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Care to list who is the author of that article? I have some serious objections to the writer's comments/instructions. Several of them are NOT supported by the rules.

That would be me. The posting is an excerpt form an earlier posting on this forum that included the entire article. In the earlier post, I called on the wisdom of the forum to help me get it right. But better late than never. Please specify your objections.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by wanja

That would be me. The posting is an excerpt form an earlier posting on this forum that included the entire article. In the earlier post, I called on the wisdom of the forum to help me get it right. But better late than never. Please specify your objections.

• When a 3 second count is reached
  • Find the ball. If it is leaving or has left a players hand on a
    try -- no team control, no 3 seconds.
  • Check for movement in the restricted area. If a player starts to move to exit the restricted area, dribble or try for goal -- suspend.
• Be Patient. Be sure. Barely touching the lane boundary is not touching.
  3 seconds is not more than 3 seconds.

I've put the language to which I object in red. Here's why:

1. If a teammate still has the ball touching his hand when you locate it AFTER having reached a mental count of three on a player inside the lane, then this is team team control and the official should by rule penalize the violation. The ball must have left the shooter's hand to end team control.

2. There is no exception made for a player exiting the lane or moving to leave the FT lane. If he is in that area for more than three seconds, that's a violation by the book, plain and simple. He doesn't get a suspended count for dribbling in the lane either. The only correct exception which you list is a player moving to immediately try for goal.

3. Barely touching the lane, or even touching it with only one foot, IS touching the lane and deserves to be penalized under the letter of the rule as well as the spirit and intent of the rule. The NFHS stated this a couple of years ago.

Everything which you wrote in red is very poor teaching advice as it runs counter to the specifics of the rules book and the desire of the NFHS rules committee. The very reason that 3-seconds is an NFHS POE this season is because people fail to (or are unwilling to) call this properly and make all sorts of excuses to not penalize for it and come up with unfounded guidelines to go by instead of following the actual text of the rule. This results in the offense gaining an unfair advantage.

[wanja]

[QUOTE=Nevadaref;637861]

• When a 3 second count is reached
  • Find the ball. If it is leaving or has left a players hand on a
    try -- no team control, no 3 seconds.
  • Check for movement in the restricted area. If a player starts to move to exit the restricted area, dribble or try for goal -- suspend.
• Be Patient. Be sure. Barely touching the lane boundary is not touching.
  3 seconds is not more than 3 seconds.

Valid concerns. Most of the article addressed the 3-second rule literally and seconded the emphasis of the NCAA and NFHS to consistently enforce the rule. The wording you objected to in 3 of the tips was intended to emphasis that, like with most violations, it is preferable to be patient and sure at the expense of some violations not being penalized.

To your 3 points;

1. Yes, 'delete leaving the hand.' Player and team control ends when the ball has left the hand on a try. However, if there is any doubt about the player still touching the ball, do not call a violation.

2. The count is suspended when a 'player starts to exit the restricted area under FIBA, NCAA and NBA/WNBA rules but not NFHS rules. This should be specified.

3. "A player must clearly, without a doubt touch the boundary line to violate" is an accurate replacement for the the barely touching wording.


I have updated the original post in this thread to reflect these changes. The original article will also be updated.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by wanja

Valid concerns. Most of the article addressed the 3-second rule literally and seconded the emphasis of the NCAA and NFHS to consistently enforce the rule. The wording you objected to in 3 of the tips was intended to emphasis that, like with most violations, it is preferable to be patient and sure at the expense of some violations not being penalized.

To your 3 points;

1. Yes, 'delete leaving the hand.' Player and team control ends when the ball has left the hand on a try. However, if there is any doubt about the player still touching the ball, do not call a violation.

2. The count is suspended when a 'player starts to exit the restricted area under FIBA, NCAA and NBA/WNBA rules but not NFHS rules. This should be specified.

3. "A player must clearly, without a doubt touch the boundary line to violate" is an accurate replacement for the the barely touching wording.


I have updated the original post in this thread to reflect these changes. The original article will also be updated.

Well, you didn't have to do any of that for little ol' me, but I'll sleep better tonight.

[artar]

So if their is an offensive player in the paint getting the rebound, shooting, missing, rebounding again and shooting again (in the lane 6 seconds or longer) there is no 3 second violation because the player (or team) doesn't have contol of the ball?

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by artar

So if their is an offensive player in the paint getting the rebound, shooting, missing, rebounding again and shooting again (in the lane 6 seconds or longer) there is no 3 second violation because the player (or team) doesn't have contol of the ball?

Correct. Mostly. One requirement of the three seconds rule is team control. Team control is gained when a player of that team gains player control (holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds). Team control is lost when a shot is taken. So in your scenario ...

Rebounding, no three seconds count until team control is secured
Shooting, the period between gaining team control and releasing a try is subject to the three seconds rule
Missing, team control ends when the try is released
Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

The only potential problem is the time between securing team control of the rebound and releasing the try.

[Daryl H. Long]

Originally Posted by artar

So if their is an offensive player in the paint getting the rebound, shooting, missing, rebounding again and shooting again (in the lane 6 seconds or longer) there is no 3 second violation because the player (or team) doesn't have contol of the ball?

Not quite. With each rebound player and team control are re-established. 3 sec count is then started on anyone in paint. Each try (Shooting) ends both player and team control and therefore 3 sec count.

The cumulative amont of time in the paint by any player is of no consequense when team control in frontcourt does not exist or is gained and lost so quickly due to multiple trys as in yoour sitch.

[RookieDude]

Don't make the 3 second call your best call...

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by artar

So if their is an offensive player in the paint getting the rebound, shooting, missing, rebounding again and shooting again (in the lane 6 seconds or longer) there is no 3 second violation because the player (or team) doesn't have contol of the ball?

And again, and again.....

I had a situation once in a B MS Game where one young man was ~ 6 ft tall and everyone else on the court was much smaller. He tossed the ball up - clank! Rebound. Clank! Rebound. Clank! Over and over again. Situation ended when someone finally fouled him. Musta been six or seven times if memory serves me correctly. Other coach was screaming for three seconds. Me,

It happens!

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by grunewar

And again, and again.....

I had a situation once in a B MS Game where one young man was ~ 6 ft tall and everyone else on the court was much smaller. He tossed the ball up - clank! Rebound. Clank! Rebound. Clank! Over and over again. Situation ended when someone finally fouled him. Musta been six or seven times if memory serves me correctly. Other coach was screaming for three seconds. Me,

It happens!

It does happen, but it shouldn't. So when it does, I stop it immediately. "Coach, we're not going to have you shouting at us today. There was no violation on that play, since there is no team control during a try."

That coach likely won't understand the last part, which is "rules knowledge intimidation." Anyway, if he doesn't get the point, you can always whack him the next trip down the court (wait till after the opponent scores though, so that the T gives them the ball back).