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Old Sat Nov 21, 2009, 09:27pm
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Question How to deal with the 3-sec rule

I know coaches yell, players yell and I don't care. But how to judge the 3-sec rule properly? The rule is just a bit different from the book. And sometimes tricky.
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Old Sat Nov 21, 2009, 09:54pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luis View Post
The rule is just a bit different from the book.
What do you mean?
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Old Sun Nov 22, 2009, 02:36am
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Two Words: Advantage. Disadvantage ...

Funny that you should ask, it's a NFHS point of emphasis this year:

THREE-SECONDS. When a team is in control of the ball in its frontcourt, a player of that team may not remain in the lane for three seconds. The lane is bounded by the end line and the farther edge of the free-throw line – and includes the lane lines.
A. Team control. In order to understand the administration of the rule, it is necessary to know when team control exists. Team control exists: during player control, holding and dribbling inbounds; during a pass between teammates; during an interrupted dribble. Team control continues until: the ball is in flight during a try for goal; an opponent secures control; the ball becomes dead. Team control does not exist during the tapping of a rebound or when the ball is loose following a try. There is no team control during a throw-in. The three-second restriction is not in effect when there is no team control, and is terminated the instant team control ends.
B. Exception. Allowance is made and the count is momentarily stopped when a restricted player has the ball and dribbles or makes a move to try for goal. However, the previous count is resumed if the player does not continue and try for goal. Some may feel that exception complicates the rule, but it is necessary in order to balance the offense and defense. The most obvious misinterpretation of this rule is when the restricted player has a two-second count when he or she begins the move to try for goal, but is stopped or the ball is batted loose. The player involved, while in the lane, attempts to regain possession and instead of continuing the count, the official erroneously stops it entirely. If the player starts a move to the basket and the ball is jarred loose, the previous count is resumed and results in a violation if it reaches three seconds. The purpose of the rule is circumvented if a violation is not called when this occurs.
C. Screener. Another situation that is occurring more frequently, and which is often not properly called, is when an offensive player sets a screen in the lane and remains there for more than three seconds. The responsible official must make sure that offensive players are not occupying restricted positions for more than the permitted time. The offensive player gains an unwarranted advantage if he or she can “camp out” in the lane, either as a potential shooter or as a screener.
D. Rough post play. When the three-second rule is properly enforced, rough post play is likely reduced. Post defenders cannot be expected to defend and deny an opponent in the lane indefinitely. When an offensive post player “camps out” in the lane, defenders tend to get frustrated and become more physical. Calling this infraction when it occurs goes a long way to decreasing rough post play – an area that has been emphasized for many years.

From the Misunderstood Rules list:
The intent of the three-second rule is to not allow an offensive player to gain an advantage. There is no three-second count between the release of a shot and the control of a rebound, at which time a new count starts. There is no three-second count during a throwin. There is no three-second count while the ball is in the backcourt. There is a three-second count during an interrupted dribble. Allowance shall be made for a player who, having been in the restricted area for less than three seconds, dribbles in or moves immediately to try for goal.

Key points to remember: Advantage, disadvantage. Clean up rough play. And some, but not all, would advocate some preventative officiating, especially early in the game, like, "Get out of the lane".
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 02:50am.
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Old Sun Nov 22, 2009, 10:58am
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The three second rule really isn't tricky at all. There are two aspects to it.

1. Prevent the offense from gaining an advantage. In this aspect, most officials will talk early in the game, and try to get the offense to keep moving. But if some clueless camper won't get his tail out of the lane, call it.

2. Prevent rough play. If you've got a lot of wrangling in the post, but not so much that you want to whistle a foul, a three second call on the post player is a beautiful thing. Especially if you can go to the other end and get the same thing there on the next possession.

What it is not, is an opportunity to bust out the stopwatch and look for opportunities to send the ball the other way. If the coaches are both complaining, then tighten it up. If the parents are complaining...wait, they're are parents there?
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Old Sun Nov 22, 2009, 11:46am
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Here are some 3 seconds tips from a recent article .

3-SecondsTips/Reminders


  • Prevent if we can, enforce if we must.

  • A 3 second violation can occur only when there is team control in the front court

  • A 3 second violation can occur when there is no player control
    (e.g. during an interrupted dribble or passing among teammates)

  • The 3-second count is silent and not visible

  • One or two alerts (e.g. stating “lane“) may effectively prevent
    3-second violations. Additional alerts or coaching (e.g. “get out
    of the lane”) are inadvisable.

  • A violation occurs only after 3 seconds.

  • When a 3 second count is reached


    • Find the ball. If it has left a players hand on a
      try -- no team control, no 3 seconds. If there is any doubt that the player is still touching the ball during a try, do not call a violation.

    • Check for movement in the restricted area. If a player starts to
      move to try for goal -- suspend. Under FIBA, NCAA, NBA and
      WNBA (but not NFHS) rules, also suspend the count if a player starts to
      move to exit the restricted area.


  • Be Patient. Be sure. A player must clearly, without a doubt touch the restricted area to violate.
    3 seconds is not more than 3 seconds.

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Last edited by wanja; Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 12:35am. Reason: update 3 tips
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Old Mon Nov 23, 2009, 04:39pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wanja View Post
Here are some 3 seconds tips from a recent article .

3-SecondsTips/Reminders

  • Prevent if we can, enforce if we must.
  • A 3 second violation can occur only when there is team control in the front court
  • A 3 second violation can occur when there is no player control
    (e.g. during an interrupted dribble or passing among teammates)
  • The 3-second count is silent and not visible
  • One or two alerts (e.g. stating “lane“) may effectively prevent
    3-second violations. Additional alerts or coaching (e.g. “get out
    of the lane”) are inadvisable.
  • A violation occurs only after 3 seconds.
  • When a 3 second count is reached
    • Find the ball. If it is leaving or has left a players hand on a
      try -- no team control, no 3 seconds.
    • Check for movement in the restricted area. If a player starts to
      move to exit the restricted area, dribble or try for goal -- suspend.

  • Be Patient. Be sure. Barely touching the lane boundary is not touching.
    3 seconds is not more than 3 seconds.
Care to list who is the author of that article? I have some serious objections to the writer's comments/instructions. Several of them are NOT supported by the rules.
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Old Mon Nov 23, 2009, 09:27pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Care to list who is the author of that article? I have some serious objections to the writer's comments/instructions. Several of them are NOT supported by the rules.
That would be me. The posting is an excerpt form an earlier posting on this forum that included the entire article. In the earlier post, I called on the wisdom of the forum to help me get it right. But better late than never. Please specify your objections.
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Old Mon Nov 23, 2009, 10:25pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wanja View Post
That would be me. The posting is an excerpt form an earlier posting on this forum that included the entire article. In the earlier post, I called on the wisdom of the forum to help me get it right. But better late than never. Please specify your objections.
  • When a 3 second count is reached
    • Find the ball. If it is leaving or has left a players hand on a
      try -- no team control, no 3 seconds.
    • Check for movement in the restricted area. If a player starts to move to exit the restricted area, dribble or try for goal -- suspend.
  • Be Patient. Be sure. Barely touching the lane boundary is not touching.
    3 seconds is not more than 3 seconds.
I've put the language to which I object in red. Here's why:

1. If a teammate still has the ball touching his hand when you locate it AFTER having reached a mental count of three on a player inside the lane, then this is team team control and the official should by rule penalize the violation. The ball must have left the shooter's hand to end team control.

2. There is no exception made for a player exiting the lane or moving to leave the FT lane. If he is in that area for more than three seconds, that's a violation by the book, plain and simple. He doesn't get a suspended count for dribbling in the lane either. The only correct exception which you list is a player moving to immediately try for goal.

3. Barely touching the lane, or even touching it with only one foot, IS touching the lane and deserves to be penalized under the letter of the rule as well as the spirit and intent of the rule. The NFHS stated this a couple of years ago.

Everything which you wrote in red is very poor teaching advice as it runs counter to the specifics of the rules book and the desire of the NFHS rules committee. The very reason that 3-seconds is an NFHS POE this season is because people fail to (or are unwilling to) call this properly and make all sorts of excuses to not penalize for it and come up with unfounded guidelines to go by instead of following the actual text of the rule. This results in the offense gaining an unfair advantage.
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Old Tue Nov 24, 2009, 12:36am
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[QUOTE=Nevadaref;637861]
  • When a 3 second count is reached
    • Find the ball. If it is leaving or has left a players hand on a
      try -- no team control, no 3 seconds.
    • Check for movement in the restricted area. If a player starts to move to exit the restricted area, dribble or try for goal -- suspend.
  • Be Patient. Be sure. Barely touching the lane boundary is not touching.
    3 seconds is not more than 3 seconds.

Valid concerns. Most of the article addressed the 3-second rule literally and seconded the emphasis of the NCAA and NFHS to consistently enforce the rule. The wording you objected to in 3 of the tips was intended to emphasis that, like with most violations, it is preferable to be patient and sure at the expense of some violations not being penalized.

To your 3 points;

1. Yes, 'delete leaving the hand.' Player and team control ends when the ball has left the hand on a try. However, if there is any doubt about the player still touching the ball, do not call a violation.

2. The count is suspended when a 'player starts to exit the restricted area under FIBA, NCAA and NBA/WNBA rules but not NFHS rules. This should be specified.

3. "A player must clearly, without a doubt touch the boundary line to violate" is an accurate replacement for the the barely touching wording.


I have updated the original post in this thread to reflect these changes. The original article will also be updated.
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Old Tue Nov 24, 2009, 04:19am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wanja View Post
Valid concerns. Most of the article addressed the 3-second rule literally and seconded the emphasis of the NCAA and NFHS to consistently enforce the rule. The wording you objected to in 3 of the tips was intended to emphasis that, like with most violations, it is preferable to be patient and sure at the expense of some violations not being penalized.

To your 3 points;

1. Yes, 'delete leaving the hand.' Player and team control ends when the ball has left the hand on a try. However, if there is any doubt about the player still touching the ball, do not call a violation.

2. The count is suspended when a 'player starts to exit the restricted area under FIBA, NCAA and NBA/WNBA rules but not NFHS rules. This should be specified.

3. "A player must clearly, without a doubt touch the boundary line to violate" is an accurate replacement for the the barely touching wording.


I have updated the original post in this thread to reflect these changes. The original article will also be updated.
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Old Sun Nov 29, 2009, 10:48pm
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3 second rule

So if their is an offensive player in the paint getting the rebound, shooting, missing, rebounding again and shooting again (in the lane 6 seconds or longer) there is no 3 second violation because the player (or team) doesn't have contol of the ball?
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Old Sun Nov 29, 2009, 11:05pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artar View Post
So if their is an offensive player in the paint getting the rebound, shooting, missing, rebounding again and shooting again (in the lane 6 seconds or longer) there is no 3 second violation because the player (or team) doesn't have contol of the ball?
Correct. Mostly. One requirement of the three seconds rule is team control. Team control is gained when a player of that team gains player control (holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds). Team control is lost when a shot is taken. So in your scenario ...

Rebounding, no three seconds count until team control is secured
Shooting, the period between gaining team control and releasing a try is subject to the three seconds rule
Missing, team control ends when the try is released
Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

The only potential problem is the time between securing team control of the rebound and releasing the try.
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Old Sun Nov 29, 2009, 11:22pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artar View Post
So if their is an offensive player in the paint getting the rebound, shooting, missing, rebounding again and shooting again (in the lane 6 seconds or longer) there is no 3 second violation because the player (or team) doesn't have contol of the ball?
Not quite. With each rebound player and team control are re-established. 3 sec count is then started on anyone in paint. Each try (Shooting) ends both player and team control and therefore 3 sec count.

The cumulative amont of time in the paint by any player is of no consequense when team control in frontcourt does not exist or is gained and lost so quickly due to multiple trys as in yoour sitch.
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Old Mon Nov 30, 2009, 01:34am
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Don't make the 3 second call your best call...
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Old Mon Nov 30, 2009, 06:05am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artar View Post
So if their is an offensive player in the paint getting the rebound, shooting, missing, rebounding again and shooting again (in the lane 6 seconds or longer) there is no 3 second violation because the player (or team) doesn't have contol of the ball?
And again, and again.....

I had a situation once in a B MS Game where one young man was ~ 6 ft tall and everyone else on the court was much smaller. He tossed the ball up - clank! Rebound. Clank! Rebound. Clank! Over and over again. Situation ended when someone finally fouled him. Musta been six or seven times if memory serves me correctly. Other coach was screaming for three seconds. Me,

It happens!
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