End of game situation

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by rwest

The crew did not fail to do their job. The clock operator was biased and failed to stop the clock on purpose. We can't see how much time is on the clock because the clock doesn't show tenths of a second. I've never suggested setting aside a rule so please don't accuse me of that. I'm suggesting that is you go by the strick definition of definite, you can never put time on the clock because we never know exactly how much time is on the clock when we blew are whistle. There will always be a lag.

Whatever number you observed on the clock is the number you put up. If the crew is doing its job properly then it wouldn't matter how bias the timer was. You hear/blow the whistle and you immediately glance at the clock, especially in an end-of-game situation.

As I stated earlier, we're talking about "rule book" definition not the dictionary definition.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Whatever number you observed on the clock is the number you put up. If the crew is doing its job properly then it wouldn't matter how bias the timer was. You hear/blow the whistle and you immediately glance at the clock, especially in an end-of-game situation.

As I stated earlier, we're talking about "rule book" definition not the dictionary definition.

Is the word "definite" defined in the rule book?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by rwest

Is the word "definite" defined in the rule book?

I hate to be redundant (inside joke):

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Hmm...let me think...how about follow the rules? How about 5-10-1: "The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer to start or stop the clock properly only when he/she has definite information relative to the time involved. The exact time observed by the official may be placed on the clock."

So, what happens if an official didn't look at the clock? How about 5-10-2: "If the referee determines that the clock was not started or stopped properly, or if the clock did not run, an official's count or other official information can be used to make a correction".
...

[rwest]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Whatever number you observed on the clock is the number you put up. If the crew is doing its job properly then it wouldn't matter how bias the timer was. You hear/blow the whistle and you immediately glance at the clock, especially in an end-of-game situation.

As I stated earlier, we're talking about "rule book" definition not the dictionary definition.

If I blow my whistle and I look up and the clock shows 0 seconds and then some time later (obviously less than a second) the horn sounds, what are you going to do? It has nothing to do with the crew failing to do their job. And a biased clock operator can have a huge impact on the game.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rwest

Ah, but you don't have definite knowledge. You know that at least 5 seconds have elapsed, but that's not what "definite" means. It means "exact". You don't have exact knowledge. Therefore, by your interpretation of the rule you can't put 5 seconds back on the clock. I agree with you that's what we should do, but you can't by your interpretation.



By your definition of the word "definite", I don't take any off. But I would take off at least 11 seconds because I know that 8 plus 3 is eleven but I don't know how many seconds elapsed between gaining front court status and starting my 5 second closely guarded count. This is actually a good example that proves my point. If I know that I granted time out before the buzzer sounded, I know that there is some time that should be placed on the clock. I know that there is less than 1 but more than 0 seconds left. In your example we know that at least 11 seconds has elapsed but could be more. So if you say I can't put .4 seconds on the clock in my example because I don't have definite knowledge, neither can you take 11 seconds off for the same reason. You don't have definite knowledge.

Ahem, your strawman is burning.

I never defined "definite" the way you say I did. I'm defining it as what I "know" to be true. Your situation is different than the OP in that I watched the clock. My situation is different in that I was able to have a count. You can correct "part" of the mistake if you have knowledge of that portion. Now, in the OP, you don't even have that.

To make the situations more analogous:
1. You call a violation. As you're turning to head the other way, you notice everyone is yelling about the clock. By the time you look up, you see it stopped at 2:05. Both coaches say it ran a few seconds after your whistle, but the timer won't admit it. How much time are you going to put back on?

2. (more likely) 1:00 on the clock, backcourt throwin, no pressure. A1 passes to A2, standing near the division line, who immediately dribbles into the FC where no defender is standing. A is the visiting team and is winning by 5. For whatever reason, B isn't forcing the issue yet. After a few seconds, you hear the V coach complain the clock hasn't started. You had no count, and neither did your partners. Are you taking any time off?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rwest

If I blow my whistle and I look up and the clock shows 0 seconds and then some time later (obviously less than a second) the horn sounds, what are you going to do? It has nothing to do with the crew failing to do their job. And a biased clock operator can have a huge impact on the game.

Up until just a couple of years ago, you could do nothing here since there was a 1 second lag time built into the rule. It's normal reaction time, so you can't accuse the time of biased behavior based on a 1 second lag.

The change came, presumably with the increasing ubiquity of the more advanced game clocks that display tenths. If you have a clock that doesn't display tenths, there truly is nothing you can do.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by rwest

Ah, but you don't have definite knowledge. You know that at least 5 seconds have elapsed, but that's not what "definite" means. It means "exact".

I disagree that "definite" means "exact." I think it means more like "with certainty."

That is, I *know* with certainty that it was 2:10 (in the example). I *know* generally that it was more than that, but since I don't know with certainty, I can't put more time on the clock.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I disagree that "definite" means "exact." I think it means more like "with certainty."

That is, I *know* with certainty that it was 2:10 (in the example). I *know* generally that it was more than that, but since I don't know with certainty, I can't put more time on the clock.

1. clearly defined or determined; not vague or general; fixed; precise; exact: a definite quantity; definite directions.
2. having fixed limits; bounded with precision: a definite area.
3. positive; certain; sure: It is definite that he will take the job.
4. defining; limiting.
5. Botany. (of an inflorescence) determinate.


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[Berkut]

This seems like a basic debate between two officiating philosophies:

1. The rules are the rules, and should be enforced as written at all times, regardless of the "fairness" of the outcome.

2. The rules are the rules, but they are there to enforce a certain desired outcome (namely a fair match), moreso than on any strict adherence to the letter of the rules, while potentially ignoring the spirit and intent behind the rules.

I am not arguing that one is "right", I can see the arguments for both positions. Personally, I probably lean towards the second position, while understanding the pitfalls involved in it when it comes to consistency and application.

To me though, at the end of the day, it comes down to judgement, and doing what is "right" - and I realize, and accept, that two people can both come to different conclustions about what is right as well.

I don't think the rules should be changed, because changing them to "allow" this kind of judgement in a particular situation would likely make more problems than it solves - and this should be an exceedingly rare situation.

I would elect to put some time back on the clock, I think, even knowing that doing so is not strictly supported by rule. While putting .8 back on the clock might be hosing a team if there was really only .5, putting 0 on the clock when there was really .5 is hosing a team even more.

Hopefully I am never going to be in that position though.

[M&M Guy]

rwest - do you have a rule and case book handy?

[rwest]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

rwest - do you have a rule and case book handy?

No, it's at the house with my bag. I'm familiar with the case book plays you are referring to. I read and study the rulebook and case book every year.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by rwest

No, it's at the house with my bag. I'm familiar with the case book plays you are referring to. I read and study the rulebook and case book every year.

Good. So, why are your posts contrary to those particular rules and case plays?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by rwest

1. clearly defined or determined; not vague or general; fixed; precise; exact: a definite quantity; definite directions.
2. having fixed limits; bounded with precision: a definite area.
3. positive; certain; sure: It is definite that he will take the job.
4. defining; limiting.
5. Botany. (of an inflorescence) determinate.


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There you go again, using the dictionary when we are discussing the rule book.

You just don't seem to understand.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

There you go again, using the dictionary when we are discussing the rule book.

You just don't seem to understand.

As a yellow ball fellow just listening in, I'm quite curious about something in your rulebook. Would someone mind confirming that definite knowledge is or is not defined somewhere in the rulebook. If it is, could someone post a definition.
________
White Widow Seeds

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by youngump

As a yellow ball fellow just listening in, I'm quite curious about something in your rulebook. Would someone mind confirming that definite knowledge is or is not defined somewhere in the rulebook. If it is, could someone post a definition.

The term used is "definite information". There is a rule's citiation contained within this thread.