block/charge

[btaylor64]

I'm ok with the explanation the announcer gives but I believe first that neither player gets there in time, especially the player coming from the right on the low angle replay, and secondly the player from the left does not take the contact straight to the torso, he in fact bounces off to the right instead of straight back. I have block

Lastly, I absolutely don't believe the philosophy about plays that start in your primary are your plays all the way to the hoop. We are taught to referee the defense and if a foul is committed by a secondary defender then it doesn't make sense because you aren't reffing the defense you are reffing a dribbler that left your primary.

[rockyroad]

Is it a FIBA mechanic for the L to stand under the basket like that? Or is it just the camera angle? Looks like the guy is standing right in front of the support during this play.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Lastly, I absolutely don't believe the philosophy about plays that start in your primary are your plays all the way to the hoop. We are taught to referee the defense and if a foul is committed by a secondary defender then it doesn't make sense because you aren't reffing the defense you are reffing a dribbler that left your primary.

Maybe you don't believe the philosophy because you don't fully understand the philosophy?

If a play starts in the T's primary, the T takes the dribbler and the primary defender all the way to the basket. Any secondary defenders are the responsiblity of the L (or possibly C). This way the T will watch the defense for the entire play, and the L will not have to pick up the primary defender late. Also, since the L (or C) has the secondary defenders that are already in their primary, the T will not have to pick them late in the play either.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Maybe you don't believe the philosophy because you don't fully understand the philosophy?

If a play starts in the T's primary, the T takes the dribbler and the primary defender all the way to the basket. Any secondary defenders are the responsiblity of the L (or possibly C). This way the T will watch the defense for the entire play, and the L will not have to pick up the primary defender late. Also, since the L (or C) has the secondary defenders that are already in their primary, the T will not have to pick them late in the play either.

And, in this case, the two defenders involved in the play are both secondary defenders. Each rotated from opposite sides of the lane...neither came in with the dribbler. The primary defender was at the FT line watching the offensive player blow by him.

As for the call, I've got a block. Neither player was in the offensive players path at the time the offensive player left the floor. They were still moving laterally.

[Ref_in_Alberta]

Originally Posted by oc

What have you got on this one?

YouTube - Block / Charge 5 - FIBA referee education

Who's call, the T, L, or C? I find it odd the L had no whistle, unless he was purposely no calling this play.

FIBA 3-Person Mechanics say this play should be called be the L, however because the play started in the T's area I could see that official making the call.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Lead gets the pass and trail gets the crash. This is not a player control foul, just an ordinary charging foul, and the fouled player will get a one and one if in the bonus, or two shots if in the double bonus. If the team is not in the bonus, then the defensive team will get the ball for a throwin.

Now the hard question: Which player got fouled first and will shoot the foul shots, if in the bonus? Can two players be fouled at the same time, kind of a reverse multiple foul?

FIBA rules - No FT on Team or Player control fouls.

Originally Posted by btaylor64

I'm ok with the explanation the announcer gives but I believe first that neither player gets there in time, especially the player coming from the right on the low angle replay, and secondly the player from the left does not take the contact straight to the torso, he in fact bounces off to the right instead of straight back. I have block

Lastly, I absolutely don't believe the philosophy about plays that start in your primary are your plays all the way to the hoop. We are taught to referee the defense and if a foul is committed by a secondary defender then it doesn't make sense because you aren't reffing the defense you are reffing a dribbler that left your primary.

BT64 - I can understand your arguement for calling a block in this case however I believe Charge in this case is the correct call. Both defensive player establish LGP (2 feet on the floor, facing the offensive player, Blue 10 in this case). Time & Distance is not a factor in this case because the defensive position is taken before Blue 10 leaves the floor (Watch Blue 10's left foot). Therefore in this case we have 2 defensive players that have their LGP and an offensive player who creates illegal contact and Dislodges both defenders.

In response to your statement "does not take the contact straight to the torso" nowhere in the FIBA rules does it say that the offense needs to "get him in the numbers" for a charge to be called.

IMHO Regardless of where the contact occurs the foul should be on the Blue 10 because he is responsible for creating the illegal contact.

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Is it a FIBA mechanic for the L to stand under the basket like that? Or is it just the camera angle? Looks like the guy is standing right in front of the support during this play.

Rocky - Yes, that is where the FIBA Technical Commision expects that Lead official to take their position. We don't like it either...

[Vinski]

Originally Posted by Ref_in_Alberta

I can understand your arguement for calling a block in this case however I believe Charge in this case is the correct call. Both defensive player establish LGP (2 feet on the floor, facing the offensive player, Blue 10 in this case). Time & Distance is not a factor in this case because the defensive position is taken before Blue 10 leaves the floor (Watch Blue 10's left foot). Therefore in this case we have 2 defensive players that have their LGP and an offensive player who creates illegal contact and Dislodges both defenders.

I disagree. It appears to me that the bodies of both 6 and 13 are moving into the dribbler after he has left the floor.
I do agree that it appears that 6 may have gotten his feet set in time but I don’t believe 13 did and both defenders’ bodies are well behind and move into the offensive player.
I say block on either one. Maybe more so on 13 as his upper body leans in more aggressively. IMHO.

[Back In The Saddle]

I've probably got a block on this. Yeah, if you slow it down enough it appears the defender on the offensive player's right may have gotten his feet down before the offensive player left the ground. But his body is still leaning 20-30°, so it sure doesn't look like he's "there". And the defender to his left gets there later than that.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Ref_in_Alberta

[B]
Rocky - Yes, that is where the FIBA Technical Commision expects that Lead official to take their position. We don't like it either...

Seriously??

Wow.

I wonder what the thinking is on that? What kind of an angle do they expect the L to get on plays? Especially on a play like this one where the L ends up looking at nothing but defenders backs.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

.....the player from the left does not take the contact straight to the torso, he in fact bounces off to the right instead of straight back. I have block.

Where is it written that contact must ever be "straight to the torso?"
B1 takes a position near the sideline. His feet are fixed at a 45 degree angle in relation to the line. A1 dribbles parallel to the line and crashes into B1, who is totally stationary. The contact bounces B1 "off to the right."

This is a block??