Block/charge

[phansen]

Defender is set and stationary when the offensive player dribbling the ball runs into the defender. Offensive player bounces off the defender and goes to the ground, while the defender is still standing in the same position. I call a charge. Coach gets upset and asks how his player can be on the ground and still get a charge while the defender is still standing. I agree it was unusual, but didn't have an answer to the question and still believe I made the correct call. Anybody have a similar situation and how have you handled it?

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by phansen

Defender is set and stationary when the offensive player dribbling the ball runs into the defender. Offensive player bounces off the defender and goes to the ground, while the defender is still standing in the same position. I call a charge. Coach gets upset and asks how his player can be on the ground and still get a charge while the defender is still standing. I agree it was unusual, but didn't have an answer to the question and still believe I made the correct call. Anybody have a similar situation and how have you handled it?

For me, it depends on a lot of factors. The book says one of the items in determining a foul is if the receiver of the action os deterred from performing normal defensive or offensive activities. This defender clearly was not! However, if the contact was severe enough to cause the dribbler to fall to the ground it probably was a foul, regardless of anything else. If defense scooped up the ball that got shaken loose by the dribblers antics, let the call go. If the dribbler keeps the ball and falls with it, you might get away with a travel. There's a wide variety of possibilities here. But I personally don't have a problem with a charge here.

[Ref Daddy]

Sell the call. Stick to your guns. Be consistent.

A charge is NOT determined by what happens AFTER the foul occurs, right?

Think Legal Guarding Position. Who had it, who violated it.

Is it possible your offensive player "flopped"?

I would love to see the tape however, does sound interesting and to me not something a coach could avoid commenting on.

[Adam]

Either a player control or a no-call. The way I read it, it sounds like a good chance for a no call.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by phansen

Defender is set and stationary when the offensive player dribbling the ball runs into the defender. Offensive player bounces off the defender and goes to the ground, while the defender is still standing in the same position. I call a charge. Coach gets upset and asks how his player can be on the ground and still get a charge while the defender is still standing. I agree it was unusual, but didn't have an answer to the question and still believe I made the correct call. Anybody have a similar situation and how have you handled it?

I agree with the coach. The contact didn't prevent normal defensive maneuvers by the defender, so it was just incidental contact.

[Junker]

Without seeing it, I might have passed. Nobody gained an advantage.

[CoachP]

I do not have a problem with charging here. Why penalize the defense because B1 is 6-10 and weighs 260 while A1 is 5-8 and goes 165?
If it's the other way around it'd be called.....As the defenses coach, I'd say chalk up the foul and get me to the bonus quicker!

4-7-2
Charging is illegal personal contact caused by pushing or moving into an opponent's torso.

Doesn't say the opponent has to be displaced.

OP didn't mention where the ball went, but...if A1 falls to the ground while holding the ball, a travel could have been called if the charging was passed on, correct?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I agree with the coach. The contact didn't prevent normal defensive maneuvers by the defender, so it was just incidental contact.

Not much different than the offensive player stepping on a defender's foot and going down really. If the foot isn't stuck out, fuggedaboutit.

[Raymond]

As described I'm thinking a "no call" would suffice. If A1 fell to the ground with the ball it's a travel, if A1 lost the ball, B1 probably has a very good chance of recovering the ball.

[IREFU2]

Originally Posted by phansen

Defender is set and stationary when the offensive player dribbling the ball runs into the defender. Offensive player bounces off the defender and goes to the ground, while the defender is still standing in the same position. I call a charge. Coach gets upset and asks how his player can be on the ground and still get a charge while the defender is still standing. I agree it was unusual, but didn't have an answer to the question and still believe I made the correct call. Anybody have a similar situation and how have you handled it?

I have seen this time and time again, especially if the defensive person is large than the offensive person. Buy rule it is a charge, but most of the time I will have a no call unless there is displacement. Just my 2 cents.

[rainmaker]

I agree that a no-call could be good here, but I don't have a problem with calling the charge especially if the whistle cracked as the contact was made. And depending on the level. If you're a JV ref, working on getting the call right, and you were seeing the defender in position, the the dribbler deliberately running through, it was a great call. Your next development step will be to start working on holding the whistle, and allowing the play to develop, thus seeing the opportunity for a good no-call. Or possibly a travel, if the dribbler went down to the floor with theb all.

[Jimgolf]

Originally Posted by phansen

Defender is set and stationary when the offensive player dribbling the ball runs into the defender. Offensive player bounces off the defender and goes to the ground, while the defender is still standing in the same position.

Maybe I'm too old-fashioned (I certainly can't say old school anymore), but this has to be a charge. Defender is not moving and is occupying a space on the floor. Offensive player is attempting to occupy that space with such force that he falls to the floor. How can this be incidental contact?

You are reading too much into the advantage/disadvantage aspect. If a HS player runs into you with enough force that he himself falls down, that hurts. Even if you never played the game, you must have had a player run into you at some point in your career. Ouch!

If pain isn't disadvantageous to playing basketball, I don't know what is.

I understand those who say they'd have to see the play, but this is obvious to me.

If you no-call this, I can almost guarantee that game is going to start going downhill. Keep your eyes open for chippy play.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

...If you're a JV ref, working on getting the call right, and you were seeing the defender in position, the the dribbler deliberately running through, it was a great call. Your next development step will be to start working on holding the whistle, and allowing the play to develop, thus seeing the opportunity for a good no-call. Or possibly a travel, if the dribbler went down to the floor with theb all.

Excellent point Juulie!!! You're kewl

[JRutledge]

This is like a screen being set. If a player runs hard into a legal screen and the screened player falls, you should not call a foul on anyone. The same applies here. First of all you should not call fouls just because someone falls and you should not call fouls just because someone does not fall. But if someone is in LGP and they do not get moved in any way, why call a foul?

Based on what I read, this is a no call all the way.

Peace

[Adam]

A foul, by definition, requires some advantage or disadvantage. If the player doesn't get moved or affected in any way, it's not a foul. You're not punishing him for being 260 lbs. Where's the punishment? Where's the disadvantage?
Now, if A1 crashes into him full speed and knocks the wind out of him without knocking him down, call the foul. But if B1 isn't fazed? No foul.