block/charge

[oc]

What have you got on this one?

YouTube - Block / Charge 5 - FIBA referee education

Who's call, the T, L, or C? I find it odd the L had no whistle, unless he was purposely no calling this play.

[mbyron]

I think virtually everyone in my association would call this a block. Of course, we don't use FIBA around here.

Technically, it's T's call since the dribbler came from his primary. Since the foul occurred in his side of the lane L shares responsibility.

[BillyMac]

Lead gets the pass and trail gets the crash. This is not a player control foul, just an ordinary charging foul, and the fouled player will get a one and one if in the bonus, or two shots if in the double bonus. If the team is not in the bonus, then the defensive team will get the ball for a throwin.

Now the hard question: Which player got fouled first and will shoot the foul shots, if in the bonus? Can two players be fouled at the same time, kind of a reverse multiple foul?

[APG]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Lead gets the pass and trail gets the crash. This is not a player control foul, just an ordinary charging foul, and the fouled player will get a one and one if in the bonus, or two shots if in the double bonus. If the team is not in the bonus, then the defensive team will get the ball for a throwin.

Now the hard question: Which player got fouled first and will shoot the foul shots, if in the bonus? Can two players be fouled at the same time, kind of a reverse multiple foul?

The play from the OP would be a team control foul.

I'm sure if this play was shown at my association meeting, almost all would no call or call a blocking foul.

[eg-italy]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Lead gets the pass and trail gets the crash. This is not a player control foul, just an ordinary charging foul, and the fouled player will get a one and one if in the bonus, or two shots if in the double bonus. If the team is not in the bonus, then the defensive team will get the ball for a throwin.

Really?

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Now the hard question: Which player got fouled first and will shoot the foul shots, if in the bonus?

Easy. No one.

Ciao

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

This is not a player control foul, just an ordinary charging foul, and the fouled player will get a one and one if in the bonus, or two shots if in the double bonus. If the team is not in the bonus, then the defensive team will get the ball for a throwin.

...but is this your final answer? Would you like to "phone a friend" and ask them about team control before submitting this answer?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Can two players be fouled at the same time, kind of a reverse multiple foul?

Now, maybe take this in the context of a defender trying to run through a double screen, and I can see this being a more legitimate question.

However, I don't believe there are any provisions in the rules for two players being fouled at the same time. Just like the myth in baseball of "the tie goes to the runner" (the ball either beat the runner, or the runner beat the ball), one player got fouled before the other. We just have to be good enough to choose.

Besides, if A1 did foul both B1 and B2 at the same time, would you charge A1 with 2 fouls?

[btaylor64]

I'm ok with the explanation the announcer gives but I believe first that neither player gets there in time, especially the player coming from the right on the low angle replay, and secondly the player from the left does not take the contact straight to the torso, he in fact bounces off to the right instead of straight back. I have block

Lastly, I absolutely don't believe the philosophy about plays that start in your primary are your plays all the way to the hoop. We are taught to referee the defense and if a foul is committed by a secondary defender then it doesn't make sense because you aren't reffing the defense you are reffing a dribbler that left your primary.

[rockyroad]

Is it a FIBA mechanic for the L to stand under the basket like that? Or is it just the camera angle? Looks like the guy is standing right in front of the support during this play.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Lastly, I absolutely don't believe the philosophy about plays that start in your primary are your plays all the way to the hoop. We are taught to referee the defense and if a foul is committed by a secondary defender then it doesn't make sense because you aren't reffing the defense you are reffing a dribbler that left your primary.

Maybe you don't believe the philosophy because you don't fully understand the philosophy?

If a play starts in the T's primary, the T takes the dribbler and the primary defender all the way to the basket. Any secondary defenders are the responsiblity of the L (or possibly C). This way the T will watch the defense for the entire play, and the L will not have to pick up the primary defender late. Also, since the L (or C) has the secondary defenders that are already in their primary, the T will not have to pick them late in the play either.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

.....the player from the left does not take the contact straight to the torso, he in fact bounces off to the right instead of straight back. I have block.

Where is it written that contact must ever be "straight to the torso?"
B1 takes a position near the sideline. His feet are fixed at a 45 degree angle in relation to the line. A1 dribbles parallel to the line and crashes into B1, who is totally stationary. The contact bounces B1 "off to the right."

This is a block??

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Maybe you don't believe the philosophy because you don't fully understand the philosophy?

If a play starts in the T's primary, the T takes the dribbler and the primary defender all the way to the basket. Any secondary defenders are the responsiblity of the L (or possibly C). This way the T will watch the defense for the entire play, and the L will not have to pick up the primary defender late. Also, since the L (or C) has the secondary defenders that are already in their primary, the T will not have to pick them late in the play either.

And, in this case, the two defenders involved in the play are both secondary defenders. Each rotated from opposite sides of the lane...neither came in with the dribbler. The primary defender was at the FT line watching the offensive player blow by him.

As for the call, I've got a block. Neither player was in the offensive players path at the time the offensive player left the floor. They were still moving laterally.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Just like the myth in baseball of "the tie goes to the runner" ...

That's a myth?!? Dang, wait a sec, I have to go fix a post in the baseball forum...

[Ref_in_Alberta]

Originally Posted by oc

What have you got on this one?

YouTube - Block / Charge 5 - FIBA referee education

Who's call, the T, L, or C? I find it odd the L had no whistle, unless he was purposely no calling this play.

FIBA 3-Person Mechanics say this play should be called be the L, however because the play started in the T's area I could see that official making the call.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Lead gets the pass and trail gets the crash. This is not a player control foul, just an ordinary charging foul, and the fouled player will get a one and one if in the bonus, or two shots if in the double bonus. If the team is not in the bonus, then the defensive team will get the ball for a throwin.

Now the hard question: Which player got fouled first and will shoot the foul shots, if in the bonus? Can two players be fouled at the same time, kind of a reverse multiple foul?

FIBA rules - No FT on Team or Player control fouls.

Originally Posted by btaylor64

I'm ok with the explanation the announcer gives but I believe first that neither player gets there in time, especially the player coming from the right on the low angle replay, and secondly the player from the left does not take the contact straight to the torso, he in fact bounces off to the right instead of straight back. I have block

Lastly, I absolutely don't believe the philosophy about plays that start in your primary are your plays all the way to the hoop. We are taught to referee the defense and if a foul is committed by a secondary defender then it doesn't make sense because you aren't reffing the defense you are reffing a dribbler that left your primary.

BT64 - I can understand your arguement for calling a block in this case however I believe Charge in this case is the correct call. Both defensive player establish LGP (2 feet on the floor, facing the offensive player, Blue 10 in this case). Time & Distance is not a factor in this case because the defensive position is taken before Blue 10 leaves the floor (Watch Blue 10's left foot). Therefore in this case we have 2 defensive players that have their LGP and an offensive player who creates illegal contact and Dislodges both defenders.

In response to your statement "does not take the contact straight to the torso" nowhere in the FIBA rules does it say that the offense needs to "get him in the numbers" for a charge to be called.

IMHO Regardless of where the contact occurs the foul should be on the Blue 10 because he is responsible for creating the illegal contact.

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Is it a FIBA mechanic for the L to stand under the basket like that? Or is it just the camera angle? Looks like the guy is standing right in front of the support during this play.

Rocky - Yes, that is where the FIBA Technical Commision expects that Lead official to take their position. We don't like it either...

[Vinski]

Originally Posted by Ref_in_Alberta

I can understand your arguement for calling a block in this case however I believe Charge in this case is the correct call. Both defensive player establish LGP (2 feet on the floor, facing the offensive player, Blue 10 in this case). Time & Distance is not a factor in this case because the defensive position is taken before Blue 10 leaves the floor (Watch Blue 10's left foot). Therefore in this case we have 2 defensive players that have their LGP and an offensive player who creates illegal contact and Dislodges both defenders.

I disagree. It appears to me that the bodies of both 6 and 13 are moving into the dribbler after he has left the floor.
I do agree that it appears that 6 may have gotten his feet set in time but I don’t believe 13 did and both defenders’ bodies are well behind and move into the offensive player.
I say block on either one. Maybe more so on 13 as his upper body leans in more aggressively. IMHO.