Mind your own business?

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by Ignats75

You have yet to answer the question. If you see there are 6 players on the floor during a substitution, do you hold up play?

I already answered that.

Originally Posted by LDUB

Yes, of course I would say something.

Originally Posted by Ignats75

Proper game management includes not allowing substitutes to enter until beckoned. Do you agree?
Trail usually beckons them on. When you are Trail in this situation do you hold the stop clock sign until the substituted personnel exit the floor?

Yes, of course that is the correct procedure.

Originally Posted by Ignats75

If there are 6 players on the floor when you follow this procedure, HOW DID THAT HAPPEN? The only way this happened, either you did not properly count or didn't bother to count. YOUR FAULT.

How is that not the fault of the team? They sent 3 guys in and only 2 came out. Sure the officials could have noticed but for whatever reason they did not. That does not make it the officials fault, it is the team's responsibility to have 5 players. If it was actually a mistake by the officials then the team would not be charged with a foul. This is no different than having a double violation on a free throw when the teams line up in the wrong spots.

[just another ref]

This has dissolved into a word game. It's nobody's fault or it's everybody's fault. I prefer to think of it this way. It can certainly be considered a mistake by the officials, but it is ultimately the responsibility of the coach. As far as I'm concerned, we, as officials may blame ourselves if this happens, but the coach has no right to blame us.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Mark, if the coach wants a timeout in a noisy gym, don't you think he's obligated to use a hand signal for it before resorting to crossing the court?

The crew didn't hear him at all. They didn't see him until he was standing at midcourt. For all they knew, he could have been jumping up and down, signaling for all he was worth.

We know from JAR's OP and clarification that the coach didn't. But it was the crew on the floor that had to make the call. And they had no idea if he had been signaling or not. How could they simply assume that he hadn't tried it, to no avail, and base a T on what they didn't see?

However, your point about the risk the HC incurs by doing this if the L looks up and sees him at midcourt shouting at his partner is valid. But the HC is under no obligation to signal for a TO.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Ignats75

You have yet to answer the question. If you see there are 6 players on the floor during a substitution, do you hold up play?

Please answer. YES or NO.


The fact that there are 6 players on the floor is the officials fault in this context:

Proper game management includes not allowing substitutes to enter until beckoned. Do you agree?
Trail usually beckons them on. When you are Trail in this situation do you hold the stop clock sign until the substituted personnel exit the floor?

If there are 6 players on the floor when you follow this procedure, HOW DID THAT HAPPEN? The only way this happened, either you did not properly count or didn't bother to count. YOUR FAULT.

While I feel it's my responsibility to count players and do my best to avoid the situation, it's not MY FAULT if it does happen. I don't get the technical foul, after all.

This happens about once every two seasons with me. I don't lose sleep over it. Whack, shoot, move on.

[BillyMac]

While some posters in this thread have stated that's it's the coaches responsibility to have five players, at least one poster has indicated that it's the team's responsibility. For those who may be confused by this, by rule, not mechanic, it is the team's responsibility, not the coach's, and the technical foul penalty goes to the team.

Penalized if discovered while being violated: A team shall not have more than five team members participating simultaneously. Team technical foul. A team technical foul is charged if recognized by an official before the ball becomes live following the first dead ball. If it was not recognized by either official, but was called to their attention after the ball became live following the first dead ball, it is too late to assess any penalty.

Before some esteemed Forum members get all over me, I am simply clearing up some confusion that may have appeared in this thread, by rule. I am one who believes that, by mechanic, it is the officials responsibility to wait until they are sure that there are five players from each team, before putting the ball in play. Of course, this won't prevent a player from simply running out onto the court during a live ball.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

IT IS NOT YOUR JOB TO PLAY GOTCHA WITH A TEAM.

Like they say in those VISA commercials: PRICELESS.

"It is not your job to play gotcha with a team". © 2009 Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.: I expect my 10% copyright agent's commission based on any income generated by the use of this copyrighted quote. For IRS purposes, cash please, no checks (no money trail, no problems). Sunday is visiting day at the prison, and I have to go and visit my accountant later today.

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

And they had no idea if he had been signaling or not. How could they simply assume that he hadn't tried it, to no avail

Does that matter? I never thought requesting a timeout was a valid reason to go halfway across the court.

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I think that I am smart enough to recongnize the difference between a coach out on the court to coach his team or display his displeasure with the officicating and him requesting a TO.

What is the difference between these situations? It seems to me that moving down the sideline in front of the other team's bench isn't as bad as actually moving out onto the floor where one could interfere with play.

Originally Posted by oldschool

How would you deal with this. Team A gets rebound in backcourt and is triple teamed against baseline. Is a sectional champioship game in double overtime. Coach of A comes all the way down sideline to get a time out. Is actually in the other teams coaching box. Understanding she was just trying to get a timeout but is this an acceptable practice? What would you do? 3 whistle crew so I know someone should have been watching for the timeout. Thanks

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Here is how I would have handled the situation:

WHACK!!

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

IT IS NOT YOUR JOB TO PLAY GOTCHA WITH A TEAM.

I see nowhere in his posts where he's trying to "play gotcha with a team."

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

The crew didn't hear him at all. They didn't see him until he was standing at midcourt. For all they knew, he could have been jumping up and down, signaling for all he was worth.

We know from JAR's OP and clarification that the coach didn't. But it was the crew on the floor that had to make the call. And they had no idea if he had been signaling or not. How could they simply assume that he hadn't tried it, to no avail, and base a T on what they didn't see?

However, your point about the risk the HC incurs by doing this if the L looks up and sees him at midcourt shouting at his partner is valid. But the HC is under no obligation to signal for a TO.

A T in this case would have been based on what they did see.

The coach is under no obligation to do anything in this situation, except stay out of the middle of the court. Is he obligated to make a signal? Certainly not. But one would think he would make one in an attempt to be noticed.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

The crew didn't hear him at all. They didn't see him until he was standing at midcourt. For all they knew, he could have been jumping up and down, signaling for all he was worth.

We know from JAR's OP and clarification that the coach didn't. But it was the crew on the floor that had to make the call. And they had no idea if he had been signaling or not. How could they simply assume that he hadn't tried it, to no avail, and base a T on what they didn't see?

However, your point about the risk the HC incurs by doing this if the L looks up and sees him at midcourt shouting at his partner is valid. But the HC is under no obligation to signal for a TO.

You're right, I'm assuming the L saw the whole play but couldn't hear what the coach was shouting. However, either way, coach risks a T.

1. L sees it, and clearly sees coach wasn't signalling. In my book, coach is under the obligation to do everything he can within the rules to get a TO before he starts breaking the rules (by going onto the middle of the court). 99.99998% chance the L would have granted a TO by the time he got 4 steps onto the court if he was signaling.

2. L doesn't see it because he's watching two knuckleheads underneath while T is watching two knuckleheads up top. Coach is allowed to request a TO, but he must do so within the rules. L looks over and sees coach standing in the middle of the court shouting at his partner, that T might just come out by instinct.

[Ray_from_Mi]

All games from now on, keep in mind, time-score-situation Sometimes we do some 'closet-coaching' while on the floor, i.e. a team is on a 'run' and the opposing coach needs to call a TO to 'put out the fire'. We start checking (visual only) with the coach to see if he's looking to call a TO. If I was the coach in your example. I would be really upset if I was to receive a T because you are not aware of my verbal request for a TO w/ 3min. to go and possibly a close score. It was evident the coach was willing to go to great lengths to get someone's attention.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Ray_from_Mi

All games from now on, keep in mind, time-score-situation Sometimes we do some 'closet-coaching' while on the floor, i.e. a team is on a 'run' and the opposing coach needs to call a TO to 'put out the fire'. We start checking (visual only) with the coach to see if he's looking to call a TO. If I was the coach in your example. I would be really upset if I was to receive a T because you are not aware of my verbal request for a TO w/ 3min. to go and possibly a close score. It was evident the coach was willing to go to great lengths to get someone's attention.

Then he should have $#$!#^% signalled. I would tell him that as I reported the T.

[Freddy]

Seven pages of responses leads me back to that one rule I'd change if I could -- that only players on the floor may request a timeout.
If the coach then fails to get the attention of his/her player on the floor to make a request, that's a team communication problem. As it is, it has, by default, become "our" problem over "our" perceived failure to see or hear the coach make the request. Not always the easiest thing to do in close game in a noisy gym with each offical properly covering his/her primary.
Glancing through the Officials' Manual, I don't see any indication of which offical has the bench area specifically designated as his area of coverage.
I'm not the king, but if I were, I'd change that rule and solve 98% of these situations. The other 2% probably wouldn't occur.
Sound rational?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Freddy

Seven pages of responses leads me back to that one rule I'd change if I could -- that only players on the floor may request a timeout.
If the coach then fails to get the attention of his/her player on the floor to make a request, that's a team communication problem. As it is, it has, by default, become "our" problem over "our" perceived failure to see or hear the coach make the request. Not always the easiest thing to do in close game in a noisy gym with each offical properly covering his/her primary.
Glancing through the Officials' Manual, I don't see any indication of which offical has the bench area specifically designated as his area of coverage.
I'm not the king, but if I were, I'd change that rule and solve 98% of these situations. The other 2% probably wouldn't occur.
Sound rational?

I like it. However, if there's a change, it's most likely to allow only players to request a TO during a live ball but allow coaches to also request a TO during a dead ball (if we're lucky, only dead balls with the clock stopped). In that case, the OP still happens.